Strength Training For Weight Loss with Phillip Pape [Ep. 52]

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This is the eat well think,well,Well podcast.I'm Lisa Salsbury.And this is episode52strength training for weight loss with Philip Pape.First of all.Can I just say,oh my goodness,this is episode52.I can't believe it.It seems not quite right because my episode one and two came out on the same day because that's what the experts tell you to do.So technically next week,I will have been publishing this podcast every week for one year.And I have.The most special guests planned for my one-year mark.My first episode came out August3rd.So I have an amazing secret guest.For my episode on August2nd to mark my one year of publishing the eat.Well think,well,live.Well podcast,it has been so fun.I've met so many amazing people,guests and guesting on other people's podcasts.It's been so,so fun.Thank you for being one of my listeners,but be sure you are subscribed to the show.So you don't miss my very special,very secret guest.Coming out August2nd,but today I have Philip Pape also fun.Just not a surprise.Since he's here with me today,he is really a strength expert and we are going to be chatting about strength as it relates to weight loss.It's a little bit different approach to be focusing almost solely on gaining strength,but that really is a measure.Of muscle building and a way to show progress other than the scale,which I love.We also get into a little bit of body fat overshooting or the dangers of rapid and yo-yo dieting and what happens on the rebound from that.So stay tuned for that.Also before we get into this episode,I want to remind you to get on that group program.Wait list,if you want in,on my next round.Depending on interest,I will likely get another group going in September or October.So if you have let the summer pass you by and you still haven't gotten started with your goals,get your name on that group interests list so I can help you.And you can have a group of women around you also supporting you.You'll find that link in the show notes.And if you don't think group coaching is for you,I still do have space for one-on-one clients as well.So either way you can make an appointment for a free strategy session to see whether a group program or a one-on-one program would be a better fit for you.Okay.Let's get into this episode.

Lisa: 2:34

Welcome to Eat Well,Think Well,Live Well;the podcast for women who want to lose weight,but are tired of counting and calculating all the food.I'm your host,Lisa Salsbury.I'm a certified health and weight loss coach and life coach,and most importantly a recovered chronic dieter.I'll teach you to figure out why you are eating when you aren't hungry,instead of worrying so much about what you are eating.I'm excited to have Philip Pape today.I was on his podcast recently and we decided that went really well.So let's,let's do a swaperoo here.So Phillip's here to help us really get into some.Differences between health and body composition,and we're gonna talk a little bit about strength training,all the things.So I'm gonna let him introduce himself and then we'll get into our conversation.

Philip: 3:23

Lisa,it's great to see you again.Yeah,we did have a fun conversation on,on my.Should be coming out soon.Uh,my name is Phillip Pape.I'm a certified nutrition coach,body composition expert,and I just love to help people really get strong and fit and get past,you know,some of the things,holding them back in terms of their nutrition,their training,and just,uh,you know,take control of life.I don't know if you wanted more of a background than that,but

Lisa: 3:48

Yeah.Yeah.Keep going.Keep going.I love to hear how people get started and you know what brought'em to this?

Philip: 3:55

Yeah,absolutely.So I like to tell people I didn't figure any of this out until,uh,four decades in,when I was turning40in the year2020.In that year,life changed for a lot of people,myself included.but for me it was more of discovering,uh,who I was and who I could be.I had struggled with weight through my twenties and thirties and a little bit of body image as well,and I had tried all the things.Most of us have fad.Intermittent fasting.Uh,we can go way back.SlimFast and Atkins back in the

Lisa: 4:24

Mm-hmm.Mm-hmm.

Philip: 4:25

on,paleo and keto.And I,you know,I,I'm too,um,I,I never stuck around for the carnivore craze,so didn't get,didn't do that

Lisa: 4:34

Yeah.Petty.

Philip: 4:35

Yeah.Yeah.And then,uh,uh,and then for,for fitness,you know,throughout my twenties I didn't grow up playing sports.I didn't grow up,uh,with an athletic family or anything like that.Most of my family had that's kind of typ,we'll say,typical health issues here in the US with whether it's diabetes or heart disease,being overweight and so on.And I grew up with a,the traditional,you know,eating fast food and having to clean your plate.Uh,not really eating many vegetables,all all that stuff.My weight fluctuated a lot during the twenties.I was lucky.My wife,who,who loves me for who I am and,you know,didn't judge me for any of this stuff.And,uh,we got married in,in my mid twenties and then later on had a couple,uh,daughters who are now nine and11.But when I was turning30,I thought,Hey,I need to do something different to get in shape here.And I started the CrossFit craze like everyone else around that

Lisa: 5:27

Mm-hmm.

Philip: 5:28

Uh,that was2010timeframe.And I met some great people there.

Lisa: 5:32

I think that's exactly when I started,maybe,maybe2011or12that I had a CrossFit phase as

Philip: 5:38

Yeah.That was their peak,wasn't it?It was their peak,and I thank CrossFit for a lot of things because it introduced me to the barbell for the first time to the Olympic lifts.Yeah.The same for

Lisa: 5:47

Yes.Yeah.

Philip: 5:49

and also like,I guess working hard or conditioning,you know,the idea of,I was never con,I never considered myself an athletic person.So now to be able to spend20minutes with a massively high heart rate without stopping was a,a source of pride,even though it kind of beat me up.And over the years,I,I had fun doing it,but.Really see the results I wanted in terms of,we'll say body composition,that's the term we use,but we,we mean having an improved physique health,more muscle,being able to maintain your weight with a certain kind of average sustainable diet.All those things that we all want generally from from our bodies.And so as I was turning40,in2020,which I kind of started this story,um,my trainer,the CrossFit trainer,he had evolved as well,kind of away from CrossFit,more towards strength and conditioning and training for strength and programming.And he said,look,you've gotta get stronger.Like,that's what you have to do.You have to get stronger.And I said,I've been watching these power lifters.And they,they take a lot of rest periods.They don't seem to be,uh,you know,their heart rate's not very high like,Although they,you know,they had pretty good physiques,right?But,uh,I didn't quite get the connection between strength and health.And I like to make that connection,not just strength and physique,but strength and health.And I switched to a strength-based program,you know,lifting heavy,progressive overload,and I started to build muscle for the first time.Effectively during2020.And while I did that,I dove into the science of strength and why does that work?Why is it associated with physical health?Um,and then I started to gain a lot of weight as I built muscle.And that was another problem because,because I,

Lisa: 7:32

Mentally a

Philip: 7:32

was mentally a problem for me as I gained muscle.Now all of a sudden I was kind of big again,and I didn't know what to do about that side of it.I didn't understand.Okay.I was just eating indiscriminately.So I,I started to learn about nutrition and,and we're talking podcasts,books,videos,you know,all the evidence-based folks,not the,not the fitness influencers and not the YouTube doctors.Okay.We're talking,you know,legitimate people have worked for years on this stuff and came across the idea of flexible dieting,which,and I know you and I have similar philosophies,And come from it in different,from different approaches.But the idea was you don't have to cut out food groups.You don't have to restrict and do anything extreme.You can enjoy the foods you like to enjoy,but understand where it's taking you and how it's serving you and how you get from this goal to that goal.So once I figured that out,I was able to control things,you know,for the first time.Whether that was my weight on the scale,my or,or just my body composition.It didn't matter.I had the.And I went through my first,what I'll call transformation in2021,where I actually,uh,was,was happy with how I felt and how I looked and that I could perform and do it within,um,you know,within the choices I made as opposed to.Spinning my wheels like I felt I had been doing for years.Um,and then in late2021I said,why?I love to talk.And I,as you can tell,I'm,I'm just going on and on.I love to talk.Let me start a podcast and get the information out there in the way I like to communicate.And I did.I started the Witz and Waits podcast late2021.I met some great people through that,including a power lifter who became my first client as a nutrition coach.Kind of,uh,it went from there.So I've been a coach for about a year and a half now,working with a lot of great people.And I think a lot of people know me as the strength guy.Like,when you work with me,we gotta train.Like that's a requirement for working with me because I think it's so effective for your health and for your physique.

Lisa: 9:34

Couple things I wanna point out from your story for our listeners.Number one,Phillip's obviously a guy and most of my listeners are female,For a long time as a coach,I was like,well,guys don't have emotional eating problems.Guys don't have body issue problems,but like,this is really a human problem.This is really just like the human condition.And so I just,it just helps to normalize it.Like,yes,we,we have maybe different thoughts as women,but you know,we're not alone in this.I did have my first male client earlier this year,which.Fascinating and very fun and we teased a lot about how my workbook is just straight up pink all over the place.And he was like,it's fine.Um,but that was great.Another thing I really love that you said I wanna point out is from CrossFit,you're like,that's where I learned the love of the barbell.And I just am always saying like,Hey,we've all been,we've all been dieters.I know because like statistics show that women of my age have been on between40and60diets.So chances are for your listening to this,you have been on a diet.Like,rather than say,gosh,I wish I hadn't done that.I wish I should,I,you know,I should have known better.There's tons of things in my life that I'm like,I would have done that differently,but instead,For CrossFit for me,like maybe I sometimes look at it and think I probably shouldn't have beat up my body in the way that I was,you know,doing in that way.I still,you know,feel the effects of a shoulder injury from when my coach came around and was like,I thought you were here to work out and put20more pounds on my bar like that,you know?But that's okay.That's okay.I'm so glad that now I can work out in my garage with a barbell because of that time that I gained confidence and the knowledge that I needed to properly do a squat and properly do a deadlift.Now,I don't do snatches by myself in my garage.I'll tell you that.It's a little too technical to be doing without a coach for me,but I love how you were like,I learned that there rather.Detailing out all the reasons why it wasn't good for you.So,um,I just,I think that's really important for us to point out those,those things that we did in the past.And it's like with food too.I've talked about how like,let's look at foods that have worked for you in past diets.Like you mentioned a lot of diets you've been on.Like the slim Fast.I've done that in,when I was a very young girl.Um,and I know like shakes do not work for me.I don't even use smoothies now.Like I don't do a protein drink.I do not like smoothies,but I can look to other diets that I've been on and say like,oh,you know what does work for me?Tons of vegetables.That actually works really well for me.Those diets that I was on where I was eating.Decent amount of protein,tons of vegetables,lots of fruit.These things work for me.I don't have to cut them out just because I'm technically not dieting.we wanna look at those past experiences and use'em to inform what we want to currently do.So thank you

Philip: 12:38

Y.Yeah,no problem.And just just to add to that,being that I'm in my forties as well.If you ask me like,what would I change?I usually,my answer is nothing because I'm glad I went through those experiences to learn these very things.And even with my clients,you know,the more information they're able to tell me about what didn't work,I don't,you know,I understand there's a framing aspect to it and they say,well,I'm not good at this,or This didn't work,or I,I made a bad decision here.I don't care.Like,that's in your past.We're gonna go forward and we're gonna do the right thing.But knowing that's the case,like,I don't know,you might have an intolerance,right?That's gonna be helpful going forward cuz now you can't eat a certain food group just because it doesn't,uh,fit for you.Having said that,I'm a big fan of experimentation and also not making assumptions.So if,if we think that hey,carbs are,uh,a problem for us,Maybe it's not the carbs,maybe it's some combination of carbs and fat you had in the past,or maybe it was because you were on a certain diet.It doesn't matter.Let's,let's be open to these things that unless it's a medical or an established allergen,let's just be open to them going forward,cuz you never know.

Lisa: 13:39

Yeah,totally.Okay.Well,even though we're saying like,Hey,don't be upset about what we've done in the past.We can look back and be like,okay,that didn't work for us.And then we might call it a mistake.Right?So if we're looking at what mistakes people are making when they're trying to imp improve their health and their body composition,what do you think is the main problem?

Philip: 14:01

I,I think about this a lot because there isn't just one,but the biggest one,one of the biggest ones I see is this focus on the short term,which for most people is weight on the scale,right?They're focused on some,uh,short term goal or number that they're trying to move instead of.Why they want to move that number,right?So if you ask a client,what,what is your goal?And they say,I wanna lose10.That's not your goal,that that's a method,that's a,a thing that you can do.All right.Why do you wanna lose10pounds?Well,I wanna be back to some target weight.Okay.Why do you wanna be at that weight?Well,that's where I was when I was in,when I was24.Okay.Why do you wanna be like you were when you were24?Oh,because I felt confident about myself.Oh,okay.Now we're getting to the heart of the matter.So let's,when we talk about body composition,I like to help people see the holistic picture,right?It's not just a number,it's how you feel,how you perform,and,and ultimately that can be traced to your physical mastery.Okay?And when I talk about physical mastery,I don't talk about what you're eating.It's,it's how you interact with the physical world.So this usually comes down to.Building muscle,being stronger and fueling yourself to perform.And once you do that,it's amazing how many of these other issues start to go away.Uh,whether it's hormonal,uh,dysregulation,whether it's the,uh,mindset we've had in the past that was like an all or nothing kind of mentality,a restrictive mentality.Um,whether we've done tons of cardio in the past and thought that was the way to go,and now we realize that there's a more balanced approach to our fitness.And so instead of focusing on weight on the scale,let's focus on building our body.And,and that often leads to a more positive approach to all of this.

Lisa: 15:47

Yeah.sometimes I like to play a little devil's advocate with my guests,just cuz you know,I could hear,I can hear the listeners being like,yeah,except for the,I do wanna

Philip: 15:58

Mm-hmm.

Lisa: 15:58

weight.I do like,I do wanna lose weight.And so how is strength the path to do?

Philip: 16:07

Well,let's look,let's think about our metabolism,right?Um,building strength,which also then builds muscle mass,um,increases our metabolic rate.We can,we can burn more.Calories,right?So that alone can help us burn more fat.Um,having strength allows us to,uh,improve our health markers,right?So when we talk about our blood work,um,uh,factors for metabolic disease,our heart rate and so on,so it makes us more capable in this physical world.Uh,and then,um,because you have a higher metabolic rate and you have a healthier,you know,expression of your body in life,losing fat becomes easier.Most clients I work,work with,we go through like what we call a pred maintenance phase for a couple months before we even lose any of any of the weight.And here's what magically,what magically happens to most people if you haven't been training properly.And I can define what that means if you haven't been weightlifting properly till now and you start to do it.And we're tracking everything.You know,we're tracking,not,not necessarily macro tracking,but we're tracking the,our,um,uh,our lifts.You know,we're tracking how we feel.We might be doing body measurements.You don't have to.You can go by how you look and how you feel.What you end up finding is over the first few months,you may not move that number on the scale.But you actually may go down one or two pants sizes,you may all of a sudden feel more energy.You all of a sudden may have some of these issues that were,that express themselves as like hypothyroidism or other hormonal dysregulation start to dissipate because you have a,a focus on building muscle and strength.And after this one or two months,all of a sudden,The focus starts to change and like you said,well,I wanna lose weight.I've seen many clients start to change their focus from,I wanna lose weight too,huh?I want my pr,my deadlift to keep going up cuz I'm feeling great and now I'm looking great and my pan size went down.Then you get to a point where you're like,all right,now let's hit the gas pedal on a fat loss phase if we need to do that to kind of get rid of the excess fat.But you're in a much healthy spot to start that from.

Lisa: 18:06

Okay,good.So,um,let's talk a little bit more about strength training.I've,I've had another,trainer on talking about strength training specifically for women.Do you,I assume you train both genders,but if we kind of highlight women here,what is the goal?Because the truth is women aren't gonna have the kind of results that you do as far as like that quick muscle building.We just don't see that with the amount of circulating testosterone that we do have.It just doesn't happen.Women don't really need to fear getting bulky,like,

Philip: 18:39

For sure.Even men.Even men have trouble doing it,to be honest.

Lisa: 18:43

Yeah.It's like really,truly don't worry about it.It's not gonna.

Philip: 18:48

I wanna be bulky and I can't get there.

Lisa: 18:50

So that's not really what happens.I mean,tell,tell me though then how can women measure?Because I find like,I've been strength training for several,several years now.I'm not really seeing any changes.I'm mostly just trying to maintain my muscle mass because as I go into menopause,I,I just feel like that's really important.I think that,um,I mean,I just really believe,and I,I think there's a lot of evidence that shows us the exercise really is the Fountain of Youth and Strength training in particular.I am constantly,When I'm talking about my goals,like why do I wanna do this?Why do I want to be a certain weight,why do I want to exercise?It's because I think it's the fountain of youth and I think that it's the way I stay young and I want to be able to get on the floor.And off the floor in my seventies and eighties,I want to be able to be an influence for good of my grandchildren.And the only way I can do that is if I have the mobility and the ability to move to where they are,whether that is on the floor,cuz they're toddlers.Or if that's getting on a plane and going to their high school graduation across the country,cuz that's where they live.I need to have that ability and I think exercise is where it's at for that.So talk to us a little bit about strength training,what women should be doing and what they can expect with strength training.

Philip: 20:16

Yeah.First you alluded to some of the benefits as you age strain training gets more and more important because it does increase our bone density.It increases our metabolism.It,um,helps us with balance,with stability,with mobility,posture helps us sleep better.It can even reduce pain,like if you have lower back pain,like almost everybody gets by the time they're in their forties.Doing deadlifts could mitigate that pain.I've seen it time and time again.Even if you're75and you've never lifted a barbell before.

Lisa: 20:43

Which is by the way,like so counterintuitive.You're like,wait,what?That,isn't that like a back exercise?I mean,it's not,it's a,it's a lower body exercise,but people that don't know are like,that sounds like a terrible idea,but no,

Philip: 20:56

Yeah,yeah,Yeah,yeah,It's true.Well,well deadlifting,right?It's a,it's more of a hamstring exercise,but then your back is a stabilizer for that.And you've got these like large ropes of muscle that go along your spine,and every time you're doing an isometric contraction on those,when you deadlift,you strengthen them.They're getting bigger and bigger.And now that supports your spine instead of your spine.Like that supports your body instead of your spine.So think of it that way.Um,yeah,so anyway,I can go on and on about the benefits.But here,so you mentioned something you've been training for several years,haven't necessarily seen huge results.Uh,what I found is that there's sometimes a misapplication of what's called a stress recovery adaptation model,and there's different names for this.This is the one I know it as.And the idea is when you're training under the bar,when you're lifting a barbell or dumbbell,or.You're putting stress on your body.You're putting stress on your muscles through tension,right?And you have to put sufficient amount of stress and then recover for that stress.And then your body super compensates for that and actually builds a little bit of extra tissue or rebuilds new muscle tissue.And then the next time,and here's the key,you have to lift a little more.So that's a little bit heavier or a few extra reps or a few extra sets.What I've seen,time again,is a few mistakes.One mistake is,uh,lifting in too high of a rep range,like lifting15or20reps,and you just don't really go very heavy.You don't point much stress in your muscle,and then you do the same weight every week,which is the second.Yeah,go ahead.

Lisa: 22:22

well,I think part of the reason that women especially do that is because they think they don't wanna be bulky.So they're like,I'll pick up a15pound dumbbell.Like,don't do that.Pick up something heavier than your purse or your toddler.

Philip: 22:35

There you go.Yeah,no,no,for sure.Yeah.So the reasons why,or one thing,and then the fact you do it is another,so I'm just addressing the fact that you do it at,at the moment.Um,progressive overload is the concept of actually lifting,you know,adding weight or adding reps over time,uh,and that,and these are very important principles of training.The other thing is you mentioned lifting light,dumbbells.If,if you're just trying to build muscle,um,kind of like a bodybuilder,you're just trying to build muscle or size.Different rep ranges can work,but you're generally not strong enough to lift very much for high reps when you start.So there tends to be this sweet spot around five reps.We like to say four to six reps where you can lift pretty darn heavy because it's only five

Lisa: 23:23

Mm-hmm.

Philip: 23:24

But you also get enough volume right to,to,to translate into muscle growth.So the volume is what gives you the muscle growth or the hypertrophy and the intensity.The weight on the bar at that low rep range is what gives you the strength.So the strength in the muscle mask go hand in hand,where each time you go to the gym,Let's say you're doing three sets of five reps of squats.Okay?Whatever.You start at,let's say it's95pounds,uh,let's say95pounds on the bar,Lisa,the next time you go in,which would literally be the next workout session,you would try a hundred pounds.Then the next time you try105,then110,and you have the,a really good capacity to do that as a beginner.I'm not saying you're a beginner,but someone who's beginning at strength has a good capacity to go up very quickly.And then it starts to plateau and plateau.But within three months you've gone from say,95pounds on the bar to maybe180or200pounds.And I see this in women who've never lifted before who are peri and post-menopause cuz that's most of my clients.And it hap and it works.But it's a very different mode of training than what most people are used to with the isolation movements,the higher reps,and all of that.Um,so yeah,that's the idea.The idea is to use as much muscle mass as possible to stress it so it actually grows bigger.And if you're a woman,if you've ever watched,uh,athletes or you like even in CrossFit,when you say,well,she has a really lean physique,like she's lean,she doesn't look bulky,you know,muscle definit.Chances are that woman is probably20,30pounds heavier than you think she is,and she has built a lot of muscle,and she doesn't look bulky at all.Like the classic lean physique for a woman athlete.That's what,that's what it is.So yeah,you're not gonna get bulky.

Lisa: 25:07

Yeah.Um,I think I'm in that plateau phase.

Philip: 25:11

Okay.Okay.I can help Lisa.

Lisa: 25:14

Yeah.Um,speak to some of,yeah,I know.Speak to some of your favorite,um,movements cuz I think one thing that people,and again,women wanna do is go in and,and do a single joint movement,a bicep curl.And I'm a big fan of multi-joint movements,like you're talking about the squat,the deadlift,um,for a basic strength training.What is like the,um,the foundation?Really not,I mean,obviously you're gonna have accessory movements at the end of each workout,but for your base movements,what are your favorites?

Philip: 25:52

And if you have access to a barbell,that's ideal.If you don't,you could do these with dumbbells.But Lisa mentioned multi versus single joint,so multi-joint movements or compound movements.Right.And the big three that we know from the power lifting world,but they're also super effective,is gonna be the back squat.I like the low back squat when you have a barbell,but even a high back squat or a dumbbell squat can work.Uh,the bench press,which is our horizontal push,and then the deadlift,which is our,uh,vertical,which is our pole.Um,I would add to that the overhead press.The overhead press,you know,shoulder press or strict press,you might know it as,or you might even know it as military press.Exactly.Um,again,with a barbell,but you could do it with dumbbells.Those are like the big four.And then after maybe a month or two of training,I like to have.I like to introduce chin ups and if you can't do a chin up with your body weight,we work up to that with like lap pull downs or bands or some,something like that.The only other movement that you can throw in there at the early phases is something like Rose,like barbell Rose,and then everything we just talked about,there's a whole bunch of variations of them.Like you don't have to be,if this sounds boring or it doesn't sound,you know,it doesn't work for you.We individualize.There's Romanian deadlifts,or if you're like,I wanna work on my glutes and my hamstrings.Okay.We'll use specific movements besides the regular deadlift.

Lisa: 27:11

I think one of the things you just said is,oh,that sounds boring.I think that's probably one of my biggest problems when I strike train

Philip: 27:18

Okay.

Lisa: 27:18

is I think it's boring.

Philip: 27:20

Okay.

Lisa: 27:21

I still do it because like I said,I do think it is like the,the core,but I do think it's boring.Is there anything that you do that like can keep and,and it possibly,to be fair,I work out by myself in my garage.That's already boring.So I probably should join the gym that's going in a few minutes away from me that they're building Right now they're actually building a24hour fitness,and I've considered do,even though I'd probably go in and do the same movements,I think I might be.A little more le a li a little less bored if I was,um,in a gym.But what would you say to women that are like,I don't wanna strike train cuz it's just not as fun as when I do my cardio or do my classes or jump on my bike.Those kinds of things I find,you know,women prefer to do.

Philip: 28:11

Well,what do you find boring about strength training?Let me ask you that I'm asking you.Yes,

Lisa: 28:16

Me personally?Um,I don't know.I just think like,I don't know,just moving the bar and then,okay.Probably all the rest.It's like two,three minutes rest between each set,which I think is really important to really rest.Like it's not restful to do burpees in between sets.Don't do that.You know,I really do.R.I really do rest,and so then I'll get on my phone or I'll try I'm,you know,listening to an audiobook or something and I'll get distracted and then what do you know,I've been resting for seven

Philip: 28:48

Uh,

Lisa: 28:48

I'm like,oh dear.

Philip: 28:50

that happens actually.Yeah.My,I mean,my advice for rest periods is just to get your steps in,like get your steps in during the rest period.That's a good way to stack.It's gonna depend on what you as individual are looking for.So you mentioned community as one thing,right?And that's definitely,for some women,that's intimidating actually,right?To go to the gym,there's a whole intimidation factor.Depends on,on the gym.And I have other clients who,they have a workout partner they like to work out with.Um,but I'm gonna look at,um,is there another way we can make this fun?Right?Making it fun might be,I just got a new PR this week and I got another new PR and another pr.I see us all the time in check-ins from clients like,oh,I just got another PR on my overhead press.And that right there just drives them.If you're kind of doing the same thing every time you go to the gym,that could become boring.But if you're doing a simple workout that's the same movements,but you're actually breaking records each time of on your own,that could be fun.So it,it doesn't get much more complicated than that.Lisa,like.If a client says,I just really don't like this programming at all.It's super boring.I'm gonna throw in other movements,that's what I'm gonna do.I'm gonna throw in other things.And if they miss like the classes or the,um,cardio stuff,there's ways to to work in a little bit of,of interesting cardio without it interfering with your lifting and your recovery.Because listen carefully,too much cardio can be a problem when you're trying to build muscle.

Lisa: 30:10

Yeah.Yeah.that is so hard,I think for a lot of us.Well,you know,we come out of children being in the eighties and nineties,just not only was it the low fat craze as far as what we were eating,but I think it was also the cardio craze.Like,you just gotta be on the StairMaster for as long as possible.Like that's a,that's what you had to do or running.I,I,I can't not stand running.but I do like to get my heart rate up now and again,and I think that,It is part of a well-balanced,well-rounded physical training kind of program.What do you,what do you think is an ideal training program or schedule,let's say money and time?No object.If we are like,okay,this is the ideal training schedule,what would a woman want to be aiming for?Cardio versus strength versus rest.

Philip: 31:04

Yeah.For a beginner,I would say three days a week full body.Because you as a beginner have the capacity to recover.Yeah.For full body strength.Yeah.So that means you,you could,you could potentially squat.And deadlift every session when you're a beginner.And then you could bench or,um,press,you know,do a pressing movement,um,every single session.So this is again,where people leave gains on the table because they might only squat once a week.When,when you're a beginner,you can squat three times a week.Even as an advanced trainee,I might squat once or twice a week,but I'm doing it.I'm,I'm mitigating the,the stress.But as a beginner,you could just go up,up,up.So three days a week,very simple,like three big lifts with maybe an accessory for.Accessory,whether you wanna focus on your arms or shoulders or back or whatever.And you could do between zero cardio and a little bit of cardio.No more than half of your lifting.Now let me clarify.When I say cardio,I'm not talking about walking.Walking.I want you to do as much as possible.So walking is my preferred form of cardio for anybody.You can walk anywhere,you can go at whatever pace you want.It's low stress.Anyone can do it.You can make it fun by listening to a podcast,looking at nature,walking with friends.Um,you can wear a ruck sack to make it challenging.You can go for a hike.I can go on and on about walking,like I'm a huge fan of walking.Walking,going from like4,000steps a day as a sedentary person to say eight or even10over several weeks building up will burn several hundred more calories a day,you know,and let you eat more and kind of have that flexibility.But it also is great for your health.So,That's the form of Cardi I would choose,and if you're a beginner working with me on this very stressful lifting program,you're gonna want all the recovery you can take.If still you feel like you're missing something,I would say a couple hit sessions a week,or maybe like two medium intensity,like half hour sessions on a bike,I discourage running.Unless you like it.And a lot of people don't even like it,right?

Lisa: 33:02

Yeah.Well,I think people think,I,I gotta lose weight,so I better start running.And I just think that's such a fallacy.You do not,you do not have,have to start running.You don't have to keep running if you hate it.

Philip: 33:13

Nope,not at all.No.Yeah,I know.Cuz it sounds,it's easy,right?Like you lace up your shoes and you go,uh,but you definitely don't need to run,but go for a walk then in,in that case.

Lisa: 33:21

yeah.Well,that's really about what I do.ki I'm really lifting only two days a week right

Philip: 33:26

Mm-hmm.

Lisa: 33:27

Because of the way the time is working out.But I do have an Echelon bike,which is similar to a Peloton.So I do,I use that for warmup for my,lifting days.Just,you know,five minutes or something,10minutes.And then I get like a,a pretty intense,like a,Tabata or just one of their Fusion classes between30and45minutes at least once a week.And then I walk,yeah,walk my dog.

Philip: 33:51

It's not,it's not gonna kill your games people.I mean,there,there's like extremes of everything.There's extremes

Lisa: 33:56

Well,and I,I do think the cardio conditioning,there's,there's benefits to that as well.We just don't need to be doing cardio every single day because the walking is really a low intensity steady state.So you'll,you may see that list,l i s s,low intensity,steady state cardio.That's really what you wanna do with combined with your lifting.So you could do that if,if it's raining.I sometimes do just a low intensity on my bike,which I consider part,like similar to the walking.My,my darn Apple watch doesn't think I'm stepping though,so I don't get any mileage for that.

Philip: 34:29

there's,you know what the hack to that is?I think the hack to that is to set it to like elliptical or something else,and it actually will work.If you set it to a dif,there's a different mode you can put it at and it'll count it as steps.

Lisa: 34:40

Yeah,because,um,and,and it's not that I'm like,oh,I gotta account my workouts,but I have been looking at my overall step count as a whole,you know,By the month,and I've,I did actually some research on this for another episode I did on Neat.On your non-exercise activity thermogenesis,and I was really surprised how much my step count went down in the winter.I was like,oh yeah.And I think my,my bike usage went up,but it wasn't you know,counting into that daily average.So

Philip: 35:14

Yeah.And steps are a good proxy for,for that.So let,let me,let me add a few more on this,right?Cuz you mentioned,uh,the heart rate in cardiovascular health,so you could walk faster.That's one thing.You can walk very briskly.Like for,for me that's like four miles an hour,4.2miles an hour.And if you're shorter it might be3.7or something,but you'll know what it is because after about20minutes,if you,your heart rate will climb,climb,climb.It'll get into zone.

Lisa: 35:37

Mm.

Philip: 35:38

get into zone two,and we talk about zones a lot these days.You know,zone two being like that optimal where you can go.

Lisa: 35:43

Is that70to80%

Philip: 35:46

Geez,don't,don't,quiz me on it.Yeah,I don't,I just,I just know what it said.Yeah,I know,cuz I,I don't even care,honestly,I don't even quote unquote care that much cuz I know you know it when you get it,it's like,it doesn't have to be that precise.But if you have like an Apple watch,it will tell you in a workout which zones you're in for how long.And if you walk briskly,you'll get in a zone too,and then you'll just sustain.As long as you walk at that pace.Now,you could also throw in a ruck sack.That'll definitely get you up there,and it'll work your traps a little bit as you're walking.You could also,um,if you've never trained,like the way I suggested a few minutes ago,Lisa,like really heavy deadlifts and squats that gives you intense cardio.Okay.Like it spikes your heart rate.Like for me,it'll spark it,spike it into the one50s for minutes on end,which reminds me when I was in CrossFit,it is that intense.So you're getting plenty of work capacity in heart health from the combination of those things.

Lisa: 36:38

Yeah.I was doing Bulgarian split squats this morning,and oh,my word.I was just like,whoa,why am I breathing so hard?

Philip: 36:45

Yeah,there you go.That's cardio

Lisa: 36:48

it's true.Um,okay.I wanna get into,we're gonna switch gears a little bit.Philip and I talked,um,in advance a little bit about the negative consequences of yo-yo dieting.So this is gonna get back into our nutrition side.We've been really hammering on the strength and,uh,you know,my clients know,I'm always like,what are we doing for movement?Although I'm not a trainer myself,I do just really,really believe in movement.It's separate really from your eating because.You,you make very little progress in your,um,energy expenditure by your,your formal exercise routine.It only accounts for about5%of your total daily energy expenditure.So really,if you want to effectively change your body composition,which means losing fat,using fat for fuel,that's burning fat,that's losing weight,that's what we wanna do.That's gonna happen with your nutrition,but when we're talking about our bo body fat,we have some negative consequences from yo-yo dieting.Tell me a little bit about that.

Philip: 37:50

Yeah,I was shocked to learn this when I did,but when you are losing weight from a diet,Up to half of that weight.If you are a sedentary,kind of,the average person is muscle

Lisa: 38:02

Hmm.

Philip: 38:02

to half,that weight is muscle.So if you think about the yo-yo dieting,the,the cycles that people go through,and you mentioned women go through,wow,what did you say?Like60how many

Lisa: 38:11

It,it depends on what,what survey and research you're looking at.It's between40and60diets that women have started by the time they're,um,approaching menopause age.

Philip: 38:21

Okay.Yeah,that that makes,yeah,so it's like one every year or two at at least.So every time you go on one of those diets,and many of these work in the short term,we know that.We know that these diets tend to induce weight loss of some kind.And when you do that,if you're not.Strength training and you're not eating sufficient protein,cuz those are the two big things when it comes to preserving muscle.You will lose some muscle and,and more than you think.And so this is why we see,uh,gradual loss and muscle with age.We see slowing metabolisms with age.And when you say,okay,I'm60now,my metabolism's way slower than when I was.That's true,but it's not because of age,it's because of muscle loss with age,and it's the,the great thing about it is you can reverse that at any time.Now,when we think of the Yo-Yo Diet,if you lose20pounds and10of it is muscle,guess what happens after you lose the weight?What happens least every time people lose the weight.

Lisa: 39:18

Well,you bounce right back and you gain it back.

Philip: 39:22

That's right.And95%of people do within five years.So,and,and when they gain the weight back,they're gaining back almost all fat.Because again,you're,you're talking about people who aren't strength training.They're not giving their body the signal that muscle is important as your body says,well,muscle is very expensive tissue to maintain as you're losing weight instead of.Going bonkers on your hormones or pulling from these fat cells.We're just going to not rebuild your muscles and that'll cover half the energy deficit.Then the rest of the deficit will come from fat cells,and of course we know then that causes hormonal cascades and stuff that are,that are negative as well.So here's the thing,every time you do that,your body composition's getting worse and worse.So every time you lose weight,you get more and more quote unquote skinny fat.Um,even worse than that is you tend to crave things that are the things you probably don't wanna over consume when you lose the fat and muscle at that rate because this lack of muscle.Causes you to think you're,you're like dying almost.It's,it's not starvation mode.I,I don't like that term,but I think it's called hyperphasia or something.Um,where you crave carbs,fats and,and sugars,because they're high energy,right?Are carbs are high energy in terms of the,the glycogen they provide.And then fats are high energy because they're very dense.And so what does that lead to?Well,I was on keto,I lost40pounds and I just can't stand it anymore and I'm starving and I'm gonna go have donuts and pizza and all the other things that

Lisa: 40:45

Yeah,it's the carb fat combination that's so desirable to the brain.Yeah,

Philip: 40:50

doesn't exist in nature either,right?Carbs and fats.Yeah.It's amazing.

Lisa: 40:54

Yeah,actually I just,I,I just like,that just kind of dawned on me.I've heard that before,but like,I saw that recently.I was like,wait,what?

Philip: 41:03

You had to think about it.

Lisa: 41:04

l like li really think through it.Think about that.Carb fat combination does not exist in nature.Protein fat combination does.That's your animal products.And then you've got carbs,which are like vegetables.Oh,right.Plants are protein,carbs,and then you've got fruit,which is just kind of carbs.Then you got fat like almonds and most,you know,your nuts are protein,fats,but mostly fats.I mean,like,you start going through it and you're like,no,really,but yeah,

Philip: 41:37

It's,it's very rare.I mean,I guess there could be a few things like,um,well wait.Nuts are,I mean,some nuts.Nuts can be fats and carbs.Yeah.There's a few,

Lisa: 41:46

a couple grams,like it's,it's not in the combination that a donut or pizza is,right.It's not in those combinations.We've created those combinations,which are fabulous and should be part of your life.By the way,we're not saying to,to eliminate those.It's just,it's just interesting like,oh.Fascinating that this doesn't occur in nature and that we've created it and it's so very desirable from the brain because that will keep us alive.That's what putting on weight does.It keeps us alive.

Philip: 42:19

Yeah.Yeah.So that's how your body responds.And,and like you just mentioned,the sustainability part.if I were to take a client through a fat loss phase,they're gonna be enjoying the things that they like.And it might be pizza,it's gonna be,you know,less pizza than May,they may otherwise like,and it's gonna be in combination with all the other things.Plenty of fiber and vegetables and,and,and protein.But your body's not gonna fight back like it would if you were in this hyperphasia state of body fat overshooting.But you also have to be training and eating protein.So that's the key here is because when you lose weight,you're going to prioritize fat if you,if you're telling your body to keep muscle,right?That,that kind of goes back to the opposite of what we were saying before,is if you're training really hard and heavy,you're in a fat loss phase and you're eating the protein,your body's gonna say,okay,well I am gonna shuttle that protein over to the muscle cuz we really need that.And I have nowhere else to go but my but your fat cells.And so we're gonna draw energy for that.The only other place it draws energy from is downregulating your hormones,which we know that that happens as well.And we get metabolic adaptation in the process.So that's,yeah,that's kind of the big,uh,revelation of body fat overshooting and why it's so important to,in my opinion,to strength train.

Lisa: 43:30

So many benefits of strength training.Okay,last quick question.What is,because protein and fiber are so important,And we want to reach for those heavy carb fat snacks.That's what the,and,and honestly,they're easy.They're,it's very easy to reach for carb snacks.So when you are hungry and it's time for a meal,what is your favorite protein?Fiber meal Combination with carbs as well,but when we're prioritizing the protein and fiber.

Philip: 44:00

Protein,fiber.Well,I'm always gonna go to lean meats as my protein.As my protein is sourced.Animal products are gonna give you all your essential amino acids if you're vegetarian or vegan.Well,if you're vegetarian,you could.You can go with eggs or dairy,and if you're vegan,you've gotta really get creative with the plant sources.But for me,it's gonna be lean meats and,uh,vegetables galore.I do love fruit as well,and calorie-wise,it's not what people think,right?Like,have been led to believe like,oh,fruits are so high in sugar.Really go and look at the macros and the calories in even something like a banana.And she was like,oh my god,that's all sugar.Uh,it's,it's not nearly as dense as you think.In fact,it's considered,uh,you know,nutrient dense food.So that's,that's what I would go for.

Lisa: 44:44

Yeah,I'm,I'm a big fan of being an omnivore.I mean,if you're a vegan or vegetarian,I'm not gonna try to convince you otherwise cuz you have your reasons for that.But if you're willing to be an omnivore,yeah.Animal protein is really,it's where it's at for building muscle as far as ease.Skills,that's gonna be your easiest protein for muscle building.So,all right,great.Thank you so much for being here today.Why don't you tell people where they can find you?I know you mentioned your podcast,but you,I'm sure you have more places that,that you're available.

Philip: 45:14

Yeah,I'll just keep it simple.Download the podcast.Since you are a podcast listener and listening to Lisa right now,go follow Wits and Weights.And then if you want some free stuff,like a free macros guide with a lot of what we talked about today,go to www.witsandweights.com.

Lisa: 45:28

Perfect.Thank you so much.

Philip: 45:30

Thank you,Lisa.

Lisa: 45:33

hey,thanks for listening today.If you're ready to get some personalized coaching from me,I'd encourage you to schedule a free strategy session.Visit www.wellwithlisa.as.me or it's easier just to find that link in the show notes.We'll talk about where you currently are with your weight loss goals.And I'll give you some actionable tools.You can start implementing right away.Before you go,make sure you subscribe to the podcast so you can receive new episodes,right when they're released.And if you're learning something new and enjoying the podcast,I'd love for you to leave me a five star rating and a review.Thanks again for joining me,Lisa Salisbury in this episode of Eat Well,Think Well,Live Well.