Transcript
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I'm Lisa Salsbury and you're listening to eat well, think, well live well, the podcast for women who want to stop obsessing about everything they eat and feel confident in their ability to lose weight without a diet app or counting and calculating all their food.
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Every time I have a new guest on, I think, wow.
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That was my favorite interview.
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But seriously.
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This one is really, really awesome.
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Today.
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I have Jared St.
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Claire who is an herbalist.
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Uh, natural supplement formulator.
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He is the owner of a health food store in bountiful, Utah called vitality nutrition.
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And really he is just an absolute wealth of knowledge.
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Specifically on this topic, which is the microbiome.
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We're going to be learning all about what it is, how it's developed.
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And more importantly, I know for you, my listeners, how it affects our mood, metabolism and appetite.
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Be sure to listen in to the end, because we're going to be talking about an amazing probiotic that Jared has graciously given us a coupon code for my listeners specifically.
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So you can give that a try.
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If you find that.
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This is something that you want to dive into after listening to this episode.
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I find this topic fascinating and i'm sure you're going to as well
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Welcome to Eat Well, Think Well, Live Well; the podcast for women who want to lose weight, but are tired of counting and calculating all the food.
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I'm your host, Lisa Salsbury.
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I'm a certified health and weight loss coach and life coach, and most importantly a recovered chronic dieter.
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I'll teach you to figure out why you are eating when you aren't hungry, instead of worrying so much about what you are eating.
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all right.
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Welcome everybody.
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I have Jared St.
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Clair here as my guest today, so we're gonna start with a little introduction from him.
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I'm excited about being on your show.
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I'm so used to being the host that I don't even know what it's like to be a guest, but I'm excited to be here.
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So I'm Yeah, my name's Jared St.
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Clair.
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I started off in the natural products industry as a little boy.
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I was seven years old when I started working at my parents' health food store at 22 years old.
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I bought the store from them.
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I'm 50 years old now, so, you know, almost all of my life has been spent at a health food store talking about natural products.
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I actually started managing the store when I was 15 years old, so it's, you could say it's in my blood for sure.
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and about 15 years ago, I started talking about it on a radio show locally, and I've had my podcast, vitality Radio for the last three years, and that has been interesting.
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You as a podcaster know the amount of research it takes to before you do a show so that you sound like you know what you're actually talking about.
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So over the last 15 years, I've become much more well informed than I ever was before.
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Thanks to having to produce a show every week.
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It's been a real blessing in my life in terms of The, the background of knowledge that I've been able to obtain, so I'm excited to be here and talk about it.
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Great.
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Thank you so much.
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So Jared proposed this topic to me and I am super excited because it's something I've definitely been wanting to cover.
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We are talking about the microbiome today.
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It's something I learned in my Health Coach training at Institute for Integrative Nutrition.
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I started talking about it.
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My family is like, you're crazy.
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But I'm like, no, it is so important.
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So most folks have probably heard this term, the microbiome, but they may not understand all that it encompasses because it's more than just what's in our gut.
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So tell us what the microbiome is and maybe how it is formed.
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Yeah, so a microbiome is pretty much all of the bugs.
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We'll say.
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Everything from bacteria to viruses to protozoas and things like that.
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Fungi that are not just in the body, but also on the body.
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So on the surface of the skin in the sinus cavity in places like that, we.
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Tend to think of it primarily as a gut thing.
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And it is very much a gut thing for sure.
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But it's not just there.
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It's all over our body.
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And there are some interesting facts that often blow people's mind when they hear'em for the first time.
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The, the microbiome itself, the average human microbiome has about a hundred trillion.
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Different organisms or a hundred trillion total organisms, and about a thousand of those, maybe even as many as 2000 researchers are still trying to determine this are different species.
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So there's a ton of diversity within that microbiome.
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And genetically we are about 150 times more.
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Bacteria than we are human.
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We actually have at least 150 times more genes in our bacteria than we do in our human cells.
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So when you think about genetics and epigenetics and all the things we keep hearing about bacteria is a big deal.
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Yeah, that's hard to conceptualize.
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Like when you're talking about the dna.
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I have a question to you.
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Are yeast included in the microbiome?
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Yes, absolutely.
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Yeah.
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Okay.
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Because there's also like for women, there's a microbiome in the vagina as well, because that's what happens when you get like a yeast overgrowth, like a yeast infection.
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It's, it's a kind of a disruption of the microbiome there because you get less bacteria and more yeast.
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Is that correct?
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Yeah, basically I look at it as kind of a turf war in the, in the gut and in the sinus cavity and the vaginal and birth canal, All of these areas that are really rich in bacteria in flora basically have the potential to have an overgrowth of what would be considered negative bacteria or yeast, or fungus, or viruses or protozoas, and also have the potential to be very balanced.
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Then have the proper amount of good bacteria to kind of hold down the bad guys.
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We're always gonna have things like candida in the body.
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It's, in fact, it's a necessary component of a healthy microbiome.
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It's when we get way too much of that, that we end up with things like yeast infections.
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Mm-hmm.
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But the as far as how the microbiome is formed, the vaginal birth canal is so important because is, is that not the first seeding of the microbiome for an infant?
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Absolutely when the baby is in the womb prior to the water breaking the baby is in a bacteria free zone.
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And when it passes through the birth canal, assuming that there's not a cesarean section performed, then it is getting exactly what you said, the first seating of bacteria.
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And it is a huge, huge amount of what becomes that child's microbiome.
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So in America, we do about a third of births as cesarean section, which means that a third of babies right out of the gate are born short on the good guys.
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I was actually a c-section baby myself.
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My mom was a little bit of a hippie, so she breastfed me for two and a half years to try and make up for it But if you miss it out of the birth canal, you are starting in a little bit of a hole.
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And, and conversely, if you're not breastfed, you're also starting out in a little bit of a hole and there's some ground to make.
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Mm-hmm.
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Okay.
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So tell us more about how, aside, aside from a vaginal birth, how is the microbiome formed then?
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as a child, teenager, what can you know?
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Is it still forming as an adult or is it just, is it basically formed when we are really tiny?
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Those are great questions and they're questions that nobody thinks about, but they're really, really important.
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Oftentimes if I have a client come to see me at Vitality Nutrition, and they're asking me about you know, autoimmune illness, you know, maybe they've got rheumatoid arthritis or they've got Crohn's disease, or maybe they just get chronic ear infections or yeast infections or sinus infections, or things like that.
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The first question I always ask is, do you.
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First off, were you born vaginally or through a C-section?
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How long were you breastfed and were you given antibiotics as a small child for ear infections, strep, you know, those types of things.
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If we can understand that history, I call it the antibiotic history.
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We could call it the microbiome history as well, I suppose.
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Then we have a much better idea of why that person may potentially be struggling 20, 30, 40 years later with these illnesses based on what happened all the way back at birth.
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Breastfeeding is a huge, huge factor.
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It's about 12 to 15 months, according to most of the research, would be an optimal timeframe.
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So if you're under that year point in terms of how long you were breastfed, then again, you probably have a little bit of ground to make up.
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The, again, the vaginal birth is big, but the other thing that's interesting, and we live in a society, especially post covid, where everybody kind of got crazy about germs where everything is sprayed or wiped down or sterilized in some way.
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hand sanitizer all the time.
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exactly.
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And you see it hanging off of people's handbags and things like that, and there's a place for sterilization.
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We certainly don't wanna, you know, cut up a chicken breast on the counter and, and let those germs sit there for the next time we make food.
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But we are overdoing it, in my opinion, in a big way.
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If you think about children, if, if those listening today have children at home or grandchildren, You can see what happens when they first start crawling and they have access to things.
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The first thing they do is grab whatever it is that's within their reach and they stick it in their mouth.
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And that is actually a big part of the microbiome being developed.
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We are becoming more More one.
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With our environment, we are actually gaining organisms that are going to be beneficial to us in the prevention of further illnesses.
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Everything from colds and flus to more serious things.
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They've even done studies showing that children born in homes with dogs have a much lower level of allergies later to animal dander because they were exposed to it at a, at an early age.
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This reminds me of what my dad called Clean dirt and Dirty Dirt.
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So he was a, avid gardener.
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We had a huge garden, fairly large orchard.
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That was just his hobby.
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It not for sale or anything, it was just his hobby.
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And when he would come in from working.
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You know, he would be dirty, but he would always say that's clean dirt.
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Or when he would pick a tomato, often hand it to me to eat.
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You know, it's like, well, is this dirty?
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No, that's, that's clean dirt.
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But you go in like a public bathroom that's dirty dirt, like the ground there.
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And, and I think that when, when we're talking about kids putting stuff in their mouths, like I don't want to put a pacifier in their mouth that dropped on the floor of a public restroom, but actual dirt, dirt, like, you know, garden dirt.
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Those are, that's where the good stuff.
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Absolutely.
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And a little later I want to talk about the actual type of bacteria we can pick up from dirt that is incredibly helpful for for the human microbiome.
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And in the finish answering your question though, by the age of four our.
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Full adult microbiome has been formed.
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So that's, that's it.
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Unless we do things to enhance it later.
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But in terms of the natural process of building the microbiome, it's done usually by about three and a half, four years old.
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Hmm.
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It's interesting because I'm like thinking about my children and their antibiotic history and the one that was the very healthiest as a child is the one with an autoimmune disorder now, which is kind of crazy.
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He has lupus, my.
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My second one, he had 17 ear infections before he was 18 months old, so that's a significant amount of antibiotics.
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And he got tubes and cleared that up.
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And then my third one had a kidney situation where she had to be on daily antibiotics for over two years.
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I know it's terrible.
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I'm like, ah, when I started learning
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history there,
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Yeah.
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So but those two with the major antibiotic history so far are Okay.
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I have tried to get them to build it up and we'll talk about how to do that a little later too.
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So maybe, maybe I'll get them to listen to this and they'll be more inspired cuz they're older, teenagers, adults, and, you know, they get to make their own decisions.
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So so on that note, how do those antibiotic.
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And, and foods really affect our microbiome.
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And is it just those childhood antibiotics or is it all the antibiotics we take also as teenagers and adults?
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So I would say the most devastating ones are the ones as a child, because they're super disruptive in that, you know, initial process of building the microbiome.
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But there's plenty of evidence that even as adults antibiotics have the potential to be pretty devastating.
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One study that was done that was really fascinating and, and frankly kind of scary to read when I first read it years ago, is the amoxicillin, which is pretty much run of the mill, you know, ear infections, strep throat, type of antibiotic.
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It's not considered a super powerful antibiotic.
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More of a first line.
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10 days on amoxicillin can literally cut your microbiome in half.
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Now
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so two years on am.
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Yeah, yeah.
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People hear that and they're like, what?
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Which would, you know, if you're, if you're not thinking through the entire process, then you would think, okay, if I'm on 10 days of amoxicillin twice, I have no microbiome left.
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Well, if you had no microbiome, you'd die.
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So you do have a microbiome and these are living, breathing organisms, and they are.
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pretty resilient.
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They, they grow and they they multiply on a daily basis.
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And so even though we can knock it in half, in in 10 days, they are still growing back at a pretty rapid rate.
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The problem is what they found during the Human Microbiome Project, which was a multi-year trillion dollar study that was done by the N I H.
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is that we never really get all the way to whatever a hundred percent was after a run of antibiotics.
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So in other words, if you knock out 50%, and these are really basic numbers, just so people can understand kind of how it works.
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If you knock out 50% and let's say you're a year or two years before your next antibiotic, you might get to 90 or 95% of where you were, but you don't get to a hundred percent.
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all by yourself.
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There needs to be something done, some sort of intervention or therapy to get all the way back up to a hundred percent.
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And so if you have a child or an adult who, you know, let's just say as an adult a woman who gets a urinary tract infection every six months and has an antibiotic every six months and does that for two or three years, well, she's gonna have a very.
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deficient microbiome in almost every case.
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And the same could be said with a child with an ear infection or someone with strep throat or sinus infections, or whatever reason somebody might get an antibiotic.
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Yeah, that's that's crazy.
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It sounds like I.
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I can't think that there's anybody in 2023 that has not had an antibiotic in their course of their lifetime.
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So everybody living in this modern world has had antibiotics.
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Pretty much, especially in America.
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Now, I will say this in America.
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It's an interesting thing.
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So I was raised again as a child of crazy health food store people back in the seventies.
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And so again, I was breastfed for a long period of time and although I was a c-section, my parents were doing all the things they could to try and help me, you know, build my microbiome and stuff with the limited knowledge they had way back.
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hold on.
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I just gotta interrupt you.
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Did they know that C-section was gonna damage your mi?
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Like did they know about the microbiome at that point?
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Not the way that we know about it now, but they did know that that the bacteria, I mean back then if you looked at a health food store shelves, there was one kind of probiotic and it was called acidophilus.
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And that's all that existed on the market.
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And it was a single strain.
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And you think about it, we have.
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Over a thousand different strains and you know, of bacteria in the gut.
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So the, the knowledge then was very, very small.
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But as a young child, I remember my parents giving me acidophilus specifically for the purposes of building up my immune resistance and my gut health and all the things.
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So there was.
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Limited knowledge, but there was still some knowledge there.
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And, and they were doing their best.
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If, honestly, I don't know if they knew if a c-section was gonna do that.
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My mom had, there was kind of a emergent situation with my older brother that created the C-section.
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And back then once you'd had a C-section, you always had C-sections.
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Whereas nowadays that's not always the case.
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So all four of us were, were C-section babies.
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But the interesting thing about about that and about the microbiome being formed in those early years is that we do have a choice when it comes to antibiotics.
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So as a child, I never had an antibiotic.
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I never had my first antibiotic until I was 45 years old.
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And that was for a surgery and it was a kind of a minor surgery.
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That they literally wouldn't let me have the procedure unless I had an antibiotic.
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And so I was essentially forced into one, but for 45 years, I never had one.
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And it's not that I haven't had sinus infections or strep or a variety of other things.
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I've just known other ways to manage those things thanks to my, my upbringing and the, the research that I've done.
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So, We often resort to antibiotics way before we should in, in my view, and I'm not a doctor, so this isn't medical advice, but it is certainly my opinion that that's the case and it's frankly the opinion of a lot of doctors nowadays too.
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For instance, sinus infections.
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One of them, it is the most commonly prescribed antibiotic in America is for sinus infections, and 85% of sinus infections are not bacterial.
00:17:07.486 --> 00:17:12.556
So 85% of sinus infections can't be treated with an antibiotic successfully.
00:17:12.945 --> 00:17:20.715
But what happens is people listening right now that have had an antibiotic first sinus infection are saying, well, when I took my antibiotic for my sinus infection, it worked well.
00:17:20.715 --> 00:17:22.875
That's because the average sinus infection.
00:17:23.570 --> 00:17:24.721
It takes care of itself.
00:17:24.721 --> 00:17:27.691
The body fights it off naturally in seven to 10 days.
00:17:27.990 --> 00:17:41.371
So if you're on a seven to 10 day run of an antibiotic and you happen to get better about the end of that antibiotic, you're going to oftentimes say, well, the antibiotic cleared my sinus infection, when in reality 85% of the time the sinus infection would've cleared itself.
00:17:41.806 --> 00:17:48.945
Well more than 85% of the time, but 85% of the time the antibiotic literally doesn't have the ability to clear that sinus infection.
00:17:49.455 --> 00:17:54.855
So we are resorting to them far, far too frequently for things oftentimes that can't even be treated with them.
00:17:55.415 --> 00:17:57.036
as I'm listening here, I'm thinking.
00:17:57.846 --> 00:18:03.816
feeling a little bit guilty, like, oh, I wish there's so much that I know now that I didn't know as a young mom.
00:18:03.816 --> 00:18:11.855
Like when, you know, when my son had an ear infection and he's like screaming like the antibiotic did work in that case, you know?
00:18:11.855 --> 00:18:15.306
And I was like, yeah, get the antibiotic quickly as soon as possible.
00:18:15.756 --> 00:18:18.935
And, and now I feel like guilty about that.
00:18:18.935 --> 00:18:23.435
And I, I'm sure there's moms who are like, well, if I hadn't had a C-section, like I wouldn't have the child.
00:18:23.855 --> 00:18:25.685
And I mean, that's how my nephew is.
00:18:26.151 --> 00:18:31.851
He wouldn't have made it, So there's no, there's no reason to feel, you know, any kind of guilt here.
00:18:31.851 --> 00:18:38.330
Or we just want to say like, okay, if this is your history, let's talk about what we can do.
00:18:38.421 --> 00:18:47.310
So the other thing is, does food affect the microbiome in a negative way or are there just foods that affect it in a positive way?
00:18:48.135 --> 00:18:49.155
Definitely both.
00:18:49.155 --> 00:18:51.915
So, and, and, and I'll, I'll echo what you said.
00:18:51.945 --> 00:18:56.605
We only can do, especially as parents, what we know how to do, right?
00:18:56.955 --> 00:19:01.439
I mean, if pick up, find a parent that doesn't feel like they've screwed up somewhere, right?
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Of course there's plenty of things that we can do that we could have done better or differently had we had the knowledge or the foresight or whatever.
00:19:09.192 --> 00:19:09.883
But listen.
00:19:10.617 --> 00:19:18.538
Raised four kids and there are so many things that I would take back if I could take'em back, things that I would do a little differently.
00:19:18.748 --> 00:19:27.688
It is what it is and the reason for Shells like this is so that we can learn new things, that we can use and, you know, use that knowledge to do better in the future.
00:19:27.688 --> 00:19:29.577
That's, As simple as that for me.
00:19:29.577 --> 00:19:31.768
So I I, I'm glad that you mentioned that.
00:19:32.008 --> 00:19:34.857
So as far as foods go, there's definitely both sides.
00:19:34.982 --> 00:19:39.634
As far as building the microbiome we know about fermented foods.
00:19:40.434 --> 00:19:55.838
And if you're not familiar with fermented foods or what categories of fermented foods there are out there real fermented foods would be things like kimchi sauerkraut, pickles, but not pickled pickles that are just pickled and vinegar, but actual fermented pickles, which you're usually gonna find at a health food store.
00:19:55.844 --> 00:19:57.429
There are some grocery stores that carry them.
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They're gonna be refrigerated, not out on the shelf.
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Same with the sauerkraut.
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You can also make your own.
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There are a lot of at-home fermentation.
00:20:04.832 --> 00:20:05.731
That are really cool.