Transcript
WEBVTT
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This is eight.
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Well think.
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Well live well podcast.
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I'm Lisa Salsbury, and this is episode 77.
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How to sleep better with Morgan Adams.
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I haven't done a dedicated sleep episode since episode number six.
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Wow.
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So I thought it was really time to dedicate an entire episode to sleep as it is a major foundation.
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For not only health, but actually for weight loss as well.
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Morgan Adams is a sleep coach.
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And let me tell you, get ready for some really fascinating stuff about sleep.
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Not only does she share some great thoughts about sleeping pills and sleep trackers, but stay tuned to the end where she gives three very actionable tips to start sleeping better.
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Right now.
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Welcome to Eat Well, Think Well, Live Well; the podcast for women who want to lose weight, but are tired of counting and calculating all the food.
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I'm your host, Lisa Salsbury.
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I'm a certified health and weight loss coach and life coach, and most importantly a recovered chronic dieter.
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I'll teach you to figure out why you are eating when you aren't hungry, instead of worrying so much about what you are eating.
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Welcome to the Eat Well, Think Well, Live Well podcast.
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I have the pleasure of interviewing Morgan Adams today.
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I am going to let her introduce herself and just get right into how she got into the sleep coaching field, which we are talking all about sleep today.
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So it's something we've talked about on the podcast before, but is.
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Just as important as the food we're eating.
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So I think we just really can't talk about it enough.
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So I'm so excited to have Morgan on.
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Welcome
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Thank you so much, Lisa.
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Appreciate it.
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Yeah.
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So tell us how, you know, what you do and how you got into that field.
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Yeah.
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Well, I am a sleep coach.
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Like you mentioned, um, there are not tons of sleep coaches out there, but the field is growing very quickly.
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And the reason why I got interested in sleep is because I actually had my own really bad bout of insomnia years ago.
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And it was kind of kicked off by troubles and a romantic relationship, which I'll spare you the details.
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But essentially it, it, it got me into a situation where I had something called sleep onset insomnia, which is essentially when you lie in bed for a long period of time before you can actually fall asleep.
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So I would lie in bed for up to two hours, most nights waiting for sleep to come extremely frustrating, looking at the clock and getting more frustrated.
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So I got to the point where I thought, I cannot, I can't take this anymore.
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So I went to my doctor and I was prescribed Ambien, which I took because why not?
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Doctor prescribed it.
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I thought this is all I know.
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So, okay, if there was a pill, I'm going to take it.
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so I took the pills and it did end up getting me to sleep more quickly for sure, but I had a lot of residual side effects the next day.
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And I came to find out, you know, after researching sleeping pills, just, you know, a few years ago that 80 percent of people who are taking sleeping pills have some kind of grogginess or residual side effect the next morning.
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So it manifested for me as just lots of brain fog.
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Um, I had the kind of job where I was.
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Forced to write very quickly as a PR kind of communications person, press release.
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And I remember there were several times where I was just paralyzed at my desk.
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I couldn't type, I couldn't think.
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And it kind of got me into trouble at work a few times because I wasn't quick enough to produce the content.
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And I just, I kind of just dealt with the side effects.
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You know, I didn't know what else to do.
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And then about eight years into that Ambien experience,
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Oh, wow.
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You took it for eight
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eight years.
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Yeah.
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Eight years.
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Yes.
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a long time to deal with the daytime effects.
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it is.
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So eight years into it, I met a man who I started dating who is actually now my husband.
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Congratulations.
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happy ending to that story.
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Thank you.
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And, um, in the early stages of our dating, he said to me, you know, when you take that pill.
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It really freaks me out because you act like a zombie.
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And I was like, and in the most loving way he said this, but it really, it really got to me.
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It really made me think, what am I doing taking these pills?
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So I decided that I was going to come off the pills.
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What I did was, and I don't recommend people doing this, I just took it on myself, you know, this whole getting off the pills.
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So I like cut the pills in half and then to quarters and, and, you know, fortunately I was able to come off successfully without like a lot of problems.
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But knowing what I knew now about sleeping pills and sleep, if you are in a sleeping pill that's prescribed, you really need to work with your prescribing.
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Physician or nurse practitioner, whoever prescribed it because you will want to get some kind of a titration schedule to follow.
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It also helps if you do have a sleep coach alongside you to give you that accountability and support because it's not always easy because a lot of times people who are taking these sleeping pills don't have much sleep competence at all.
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So they need support and having someone build that up.
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And unfortunately, the doctors are just too busy to like hold your hand through it.
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They can give you the schedule, so that's the sleep story.
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Number one.
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And I slept fine after, you know, getting off the pills for many years.
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And then a plot twist happened that, uh, and that plot twist actually was experienced by all of us collectively in March of 2020, when the pandemic started, I started to have trouble sleeping again.
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And I was really, really concerned because I did not want to go down that road of full blown insomnia again.
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So I went to Dr.
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Google and started looking up sleep tips and how to sleep better.
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Got an Oura ring to track my sleep.
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And within a short period of time, I was actually able to turn my sleep around before it got too bad.
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And I got pretty fascinated with this whole topic of sleep, you know, because it was, it seemed very fixable, you know, in a short period of time.
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So I started to just organically post what I was doing, what I was learning about sleep on Facebook.
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And I came to find out that a lot of other women in my circle were struggling with sleep around the same time I was during the pandemic.
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So late in 20, I think it was late summer 2020.
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I had this revelation and it just like, it was like, I'd been struck by lightning, Morgan, you need to become a sleep coach for women because so many people are struggling with their sleep.
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So it was at that point that I was off to the races, getting multiple certifications, taking classes and really getting up to speed.
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I spent about a year or so doing that.
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And then I launched my sleep coaching practice, um, a little over two years ago.
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So that is kind of how I got into this kind of a roundabout story, but I feel like.
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In this field of health coaching, a lot of people who are practitioners have had the same issue they're helping others with.
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It's sort of that pain into purpose.
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And that was the 100%.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And Morgan and I went to the same health coaching certification program at Institute for Integrative Nutrition, which is great by the way, it is a great foundation for health coaches.
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But then she was telling me before she did additional coursework specifically in this area to really hone in on the sleep issues that women are having.
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So first of all, thank you for sharing that story.
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I think it's fascinating that you were able to titrate down and like you said, like work with your doctor.
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If If you are wanting to do that, but you were able to get off of them, but then still be able to sleep.
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Do you think that was associated more with like the stable relationship as opposed to what, like how it happened in the first place, or just sort of your body was used to sleeping at that point
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Yeah, it's, it's a good question.
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I think it was probably because I was just in a more stable place.
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And, I would, maybe I was just ready.
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I was determined to make it work out.
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And I had, you know, kind of tried to stop a few times before that, but it just wasn't the right time for me.
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But I'm really, really glad that I got off of them because I did not have that fogginess that I was dealing with.
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And in fact, this is really interesting.
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I found out that in 2013, so about a year before I stopped taking the pills, the FDA ended up changing the dosage for women.
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They ended up cutting the dosage in half because what they were finding is that so many women were being overmedicated and having these residual side effects.
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That they, they had to reduce it.
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So in essence, I was being over medicated without my knowledge because they changed that in 2013.
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And then in 2019, they put a black box warning on these meds like Lunesta.
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Yeah.
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Look, all the Z drugs, Lunesta, Sonata, Ambien.
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And for, for those who don't know what a black box warning is, it's, it's a warning on a drug itself.
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You can see it in the package insert and the drug basically stating that, you know, certain side effects can happen.
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And the reason why they put the black box warning on it is because there were actually several and continue to be several incidents where people harm themselves or other people.
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So getting behind the wheel of a car when you're under the influence.
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and even, you know, I know that in my case, you know, I hate to admit it, but there were mornings when I had to get my butt to work and I had major grogginess from the sleeping pills.
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It was like, almost like I was still under the influence, but I had to get to work, you know?
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So,
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So, you were definitely driving and what you kind of look back on is an unsafe state.
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I believe so.
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Yeah.
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And I think, you know, if you think about all the people out there who are taking sleeping pills, um, sadly, you know, a lot of people are probably under the influence and may not even realize it.
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So there's some really, gruesome consequences to these pills.
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And perhaps the most poignant description of the dangers is in Matthew Walker's book.
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why we sleep.
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I love that book.
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It's amazing.
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He has a section on the book and the book on sleeping pills and he delivers some really powerful statistics, some of them even being, sleeping pills being correlated with higher mortality rates.
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Scary.
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And, you know, he's not saying that if you take sleeping pills, you're going to have an earlier death, but there is some kind of.
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Association, especially when you're looking at, like sleeping pills and infection rates, And one of the theories is that when you're asleep on a sleeping pill, you're actually not getting the same quality sleep you would in a natural state.
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And you're also not going through the proper sleep stages and the sequential order that they're supposed to be in.
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And because of that.
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Perhaps that lack of sleep quality is affecting our immune function, right?
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so yeah, it gets pretty deep if you really, you really think about it.
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absolutely.
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I think most of us, although I certainly don't recommend, like you said, Dr.
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Google, I think we've all been like, Oh, I'm not sleeping well.
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What could help and done those sleep hygiene tips, which I appreciate where we talked a little before that we're really going to get beyond those sorts of things.
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So I did hear you say, you know, you spend a third of your life sleeping.
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So you do some quick math.
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That's eight hours a night.
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Is that your recommendation?
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So the national sleep foundation recommends seven to nine hours a night.
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So eight is sort of like kind of right in the middle.
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And because I'm a sleep coach, I get served a lot of ads and a lot of products and a lot of content.
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And so much of it is, you know, get eight hours of sleep, get eight hours of sleep.
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The reality is that if you look, I'm going to use this analogy because your listeners, interested in food and nutrition.
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So not everyone has the same calorie need depends on, you know, many factors, how active you are, your age.
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I mean, so many things go into this.
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So it's kind of the same with sleep.
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Not everyone is going to need that eight hours.
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Most of us are probably going to need probably seven to eight, most of us, but you really kind of need to, to figure out kind of what your own sleep need is by listening to your body.
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When you look at the National Sleep Foundation, uh, the full, recommendations for sleep for adults and all different age groups, you will 10 hours may be appropriate.
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So that's a little, that's quite a
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That's quite a range
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It's quite a range.
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And, you know, there are very, very few people who can get by with six hours of sleep.
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In fact, they probably have some kind of genetic variance that allows them to be, in that category.
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But
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they're just using a lot of caffeine.
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yeah,
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that say, Oh, I only need six hours are either like lying to themselves.
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They could be functioning at a much higher level, or they're depending on a lot of caffeine during the day.
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I think you're right.
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And we, we look at long term studies.
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What we will find is that when people are these are longitudinal studies when we're when we're looking at people who are consistently getting less than six hours of sleep on a long term basis, we do find increased associations with obesity, diabetes, heart disease, cognitive decline, so it's not necessarily to say that you're automatically going to get these conditions, but it's something to really think about if you are the kind of person who is Burning the candle at both ends and not really prioritizing your sleep.
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The people that I've really worried about though, are people who have insomnia and see these headlines about these terrible things may happen to you.
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Because these, the, the, and I'm mostly working with people who have insomnia.
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They are, they are trying to get that sleep.
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So when they see these messages in the media about X, Y, Z is going to happen, if you don't get six hours.
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They become even more anxious about their sleep and I'm, when I'm working with them, I have to really reassure them about, you know, just because you have insomnia doesn't mean you're going to die of this, this, or this,
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And insomnia is so different than just not prioritizing because I, yeah, with my clients, I feel like we talk about sleep a lot because like you said, it is so important to a lot of our food choices and to preventing obesity and other health issues that could come down the road.
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And so a lot of times it's just a matter of.
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Choosing to turn the TV off, choosing to put the book down, choosing to a lot of my mom clients are like, it's my only time it's when I do my projects and that sort of thing.
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And so it becomes a matter of choosing to prioritize sleep.
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Insomnia is a whole, whole different.
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Issue.
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And that does not have anything to do with just their choosing to be in bed at the right time.
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And you did say that's primarily what you help with and you use cognitive behavioral theory therapy, which is it.
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Therapy.
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It's called CBTI, cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So tell us about that.
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yeah, So it sounds very clinical and very, you know, therapy like, but in actuality, it's not as therapeutic, in that, in that realm as one might think.
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In fact, there's a very well known sleep doctor who I heard lecture and he said, CBTI is more like potty training and less like therapy.
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And I thought, Oh, you really, you really nailed it.
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So when you're looking at CBTI, you're looking at the C part being the cognitive part, that's really related to changing some negative maladaptive thoughts about sleep and attitudes about sleep.
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So we're working to, make those corrections over time.
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So an example might be the person who is like, I have to get eight hours of sleep or I'm going to suffer from this.
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It's actually reframing that into something more positive.
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The B part, the behavioral part, is actually sort of the crux of the whole CBTI protocol.
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And that's actually changing some key behaviors around sleep.
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And you're essentially just training your brain to get, to get better sleep.
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And a couple of the techniques that are used, one is called sleep restriction.
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And it's a terrible phrase because it sounds like you're making people sleep less.
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But in actuality, it's bedtime restriction.
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So, for example, a lot of people who have insomnia will lie in bed, they'll spend what, nine hours in bed, ten hours in bed, only to generate like six hours of sleep.
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So, what we want to do is we want to kind of consolidate that sleep so that the time they're asleep, they're spending in more quality sleep, right?
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another thing that's part of the behavioral part of CBTI is something called stimulus control, and that's essentially making the bed or the bedroom, the bed, a place only for sleep and sex.
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So what we don't want someone to do is spend a lot of time worrying in bed, right?
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So somebody who wakes up at, you know, 1 in the morning and can't get back to sleep after about, you know, 2030 minutes, what we instruct them to do is to sound so so counterintuitive, but to get out of bed.
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And to go into another room and do something relaxing and pleasant and dim light until they become sleepy again, and then they return to bed.
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So it's a real, it's a real kind of behavioral technique that basically unpairs Your brain with the anxiety of being in bed.
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We want to make your bed a place where you're relaxed and you're not stressed out.
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So do you include like not working, not being on your phone, not bringing your laptop into bed, not watching TV, all that kind of stuff as well.
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all of the above now, the TV is a little, can there can be a little bit of a grace period with that?
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Because some people just with their lives and their partners, it's part of their ritual, but definitely not working in bed.
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Definitely not scrolling their phone in bed.
00:18:25.031 --> 00:18:28.082
I mean, I've had lots of clients have disrupted sleep.
00:18:28.622 --> 00:18:33.491
because of that, you know, the blue light and everything, um, the stimulation of social media.
00:18:33.942 --> 00:18:38.501
So really, you just want to make your bed for sleep and sex as much as you can.
00:18:39.112 --> 00:18:55.521
And so what, what I do in my practice is I take some of these concepts from CBTI when they're appropriate for the client, and then we implement them to help them improve their sleep quality so that they are, getting better sleep overall.
00:18:55.969 --> 00:19:07.805
And they're feeling better in the day because a lot of, people talk about insomnia as being like a nighttime problem, but in, in reality, so much of the fallout from insomnia happens during the day, right?
00:19:07.845 --> 00:19:12.015
When people have fatigue and they're irritable and they can't concentrate.
00:19:12.595 --> 00:19:16.664
so that's just sort of a little background of CBTI and how it works.
00:19:17.015 --> 00:19:26.265
So switching gears a little bit, you mentioned that you kind of started with sleep onset insomnia where you can't go to sleep at night, but so many of us in midlife.
00:19:26.335 --> 00:19:36.365
And it's not that I only have listeners that are in midlife, but if you're not there yet, this might happen to you is we wake up at 3 AM and knock on wood.
00:19:36.404 --> 00:19:41.734
This isn't one of my perimenopause symptoms just yet, but that one, two, 3 AM wake up.
00:19:41.744 --> 00:19:42.714
Why does that happen?
00:19:42.744 --> 00:19:43.154
Yeah.
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So first of all, I just want to normalize that wake ups are normal.
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So a healthy adult can have up to 12 wake ups a night.
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And the thing is, is that most of these wake ups are very brief.
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So we are actually kind of designed to wake up very briefly after we've completed a sleep cycle.
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And those awakenings are sort of designed to.
00:20:08.845 --> 00:20:11.474
Um, And then once we realize we're safe, we go right back to sleep.
00:20:11.815 --> 00:20:21.662
I did, uh, I don't want to say a sleep study, but it's a device and app that I used and I measured it against my Oura ring and the device was saying, I woke up like 16 times.
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I only remembered one of those awakenings.
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That's how brief they were.