Getting Out of All or Nothing Mentality with Esther Avant [Ep. 101]

0:00 This is Eat Well, Think Well, Live Well podcast. I'm Lisa Saulsbury. And this is episode 101 getting out of all or nothing mentality with Esther Avant. Do you feel like you're either all in or all out? You're either. Quote unquote, losing weight or not trying at all. This is what Esther and I discuss today. This conversation is more than just start small, although there is a fair amount of that, because I think we all need that reminder. But we also discuss concepts like compassionate ownership and the very next bite. We're going to tell you to love yourself through all of this process. And that is probably the key to getting out of this all or nothing mentality.

0:44 Welcome to Eat Well, Think Well, Live Well; the podcast for women who want to lose weight, but are tired of counting and calculating all the food. I'm your host, Lisa Salsbury. I'm a certified health and weight loss coach and life coach, and most importantly a recovered chronic dieter. I'll teach you to figure out why you are eating when you aren't hungry, instead of worrying so much about what you are eating. Welcome back to the eat well, think well, live well podcast. I'm here with Esther Avant. She's a health and weight loss coach like me. And we had lots of fun talking last week for her podcast. So we wanted to do sort of a pod swap, and I'm excited about the conversation we have planned for you listeners today.

1:24 So welcome Esther. Why don't you give us a little background into what you do, and then we'll jump into our conversation. Thank you so much for having me, and it was a blast having you on Live Diet Free. For those of you guys who want to check out Lisa's interview, we talked all about quitting the Clean Plate Club, and that's episode 207. So, my background is, my career really kind of evolved over the last 20 years, where I started off lifting weights in the YMCA in high school, around the time that I had to pick a college major, and getting paid to work out would be cool. I went to school for exercise science, very quickly found out I was going to be learning a lot about exercise and not doing a whole lot of it because I was so buried under my course load.

2:14 Long story short, I became a personal trainer in college and that was my first job out of school. And it was in starting to work with real life clients that I Started to see how important the nutrition piece was and how many clients were frustrated that you know, I'm paying all this money for a trainer I'm showing up to my sessions. Why is it, you know, not working and Just starting to see there's so much else that's happening outside of this two hours in the gym So that led me down the road of nutrition certifications internships getting qualified in in that area Um And I was in my, my mid early twenties as well, struggling myself with, you know, binging and restricting over exercising, not wanting to take days off kind of all of that like textbook stuff.

3:04 And even once I had the nutrition piece. It just still felt like there was sort of this disconnect where I had a lot of knowledge, I knew what to do, but I was still struggling to actually do it. And that led me into what's really been my kind of favorite piece of this so far is the psychology and the behavior modification side of things of how do you take, you know, the The knowledge, the science, the what to do, and actually apply it to your life, to other people's lives in a way that's going to stick, because I think we've all experienced the ups and downs of something working for a while. And then you fall out of the habit and revert back. So what I do now is sort of the culmination of all of that in keeping exercise and nutrition really simple because it doesn't need to be something all consuming or complicated and then really diving into the day to day.

3:56 obstacles that stand in our way is why is it so hard to do the simple things that you know to do? And that often gets into our mindsets, our lifestyles, and that's kind of the real work of making lasting change. Perfect. Well, this is why we get along so well. Okay. So in that vein, it's like we, we are on the diet or then we're off the diet. It seems like we see that a lot, both in ourselves. And by the way, I just want to say, it's so interesting how many fitness, nutritional professionals, health coaches that are in this space where we're like, I know what to do. And It's still hard to do it.

4:37 And, and also like the space before where you're kind of like diving down into that orthorexia road where it's the obsession with doing it, the over exercising, the over dieting and over control and stuff. And so it is kind of amazing when we're able to let go a little bit and start to trust your own body and listen to, you know, what she's telling you. So, but that's hard to do. And we get into the all or nothing We get into, well, either I'm on or I'm off and, um, it feels. Like the only way to do it because it feels like it's all we've ever known. So I know this is something that you talk about this all or nothing mentality and it being detrimental to your longterm success.

5:24 Let's get into that and, and your thoughts there. Yeah, so you nailed it. That is the cycle that most of us experience is we typically reach Either some sort of low point where we're just like I have to do something now, or there's a catalyst like it's, you know, January 1st or your birthday or before a vacation something triggers us to just want to go all in. I'm feeling so bad right now or I can't be looking like this in eight weeks when I go on vacation. vacation, we want to do everything we can to feel better as quickly as possible, which is understandable. The problem is we don't very well turn up and down the dial, which is really what our efforts should be on.

6:12 We treat them more like an on off switch. So, you jump in with both feet, the, you know, Monday aligns with the first of the month and you're like, okay, this is it. I'm waking up every day at five o'clock, I'm going to do an hour of cardio, I'm going to eat, you know, I'm going to have a green smoothie, I'm going to pack my lunch. And we just try to do all these things at once. Many of them are unnecessary in the first place. And even the ones that are a good idea, we're just trying to do too much at once. If you're listening to this, odds are you are busy. And time is at a premium. So to be adding a lot more things onto your already full plate works until it doesn't.

6:54 And generally we can sustain that rapid increase in effort for a few weeks. And either life stuff starts happening. A kid gets sick, you have a work deadline, your husband has a work trip, something kind of throws us off. Or the initial kind of urgency, Is gone and we do start to feel a little bit better and we sort of feel like, well, all right now I've, you know, I can kind of take my foot off the gas a little bit, but instead of figuring out. So what does it look like to do less, but still be showing up? We just totally fall off. So we've all, I think, had the experience of.

7:35 The starts and stops and the, I lost 10 pounds and then I gained back 11 and, and that sort of thing. So ultimately, you know, you mentioned getting out of the cycle. The first thing we need to acknowledge is that this isn't working because it's so tempting to just go back to, well, this worked for me before. And you have to ask yourself, did it really? Because if it did, why am I finding myself back here again? So recognizing that Nothing's going to be different the next time you try it the same way. So what do you have to lose if you start approaching it differently? so good. And I, right from the beginning, you were saying that a lot of times we are at a low or we're thinking, okay, we've got to do something.

8:20 And I think so often this, the all or nothing mentality. And when we're in the all stems from some sort of self hate, self loathing, it stems from some sort of, well, I've got to do something. And It's like, I don't know. I, I'm, I'm laughing because I hear my mom and I, I don't want to throw her under the bus. My, my mom's adorable, but so many times in my life, I'm like, why are you, why are you doing this XYZ thing that you are doing? And she's always goes, well, I have to do something because it's like, I obviously can't stay like this.

9:01 Right. And the underlying thing is. I hate the way I look or feel and that's terrible fuel for this and I, it's one of the main reasons why when we're putting our foot on the gas and we're in that all, right? it's fueled from a place of not self love. We're not doing it because we're like, you know what I want to do? I just want to take care of my body better. That's not when we're in this mentality. You're exactly right. And that is such an important shift to make, is that you cannot change from a place of hate. It has to come from a place of love and compassion and, and understanding that you don't have to be happy with Your health or your weight, but you do need to recognize that you are worthy and you have value and you are an inherently good person, lovable person, no matter what.

10:01 And when you start to make the changes from a place of how does someone who cares about themselves show up for herself, it feels so much better. And it ultimately is so much more successful because you are not constantly at odds with yourself. And, you know, really One of the problems with, you know, kind of the, the, the hate yourself into changing approach is that you arrive at whatever, you know, destination. And you still don't feel good. You were just kind of kicking a can down the road, thinking once I see this number, then I'll love myself and you don't, then you're just smaller and you still feel the same way. So you're going to be so much better off.

10:43 And obviously this is a process, but the time is going to pass anyway. So if you're going to spend the time learning how to live a healthier lifestyle, Also do the mental work of acknowledging that you are not going to, to magically arrive at this, uh, this, this positive outlook on yourself, that it takes work also, and you can do that along the way. Definitely. Definitely. Because we, we don't need to just also sit around and wait till we're like, okay, I love myself, now I can be on a good health trajectory. It totally happens at the same time. That's exactly it. And there's a term I use in coaching called compassionate ownership, which really ties in well with an all or nothing mentality, because I think we do sort of, especially on the internet where everything is very polarized, you do sort of, you can find yourself in.

11:35 Environments where it's either this really kind of like hardcore militant masculine, like everything is your fault and it's on you and only you to do something about it. And then you have sort of the other side of it, which is sort of like this woo, woo, very sort of like vague, it's all just about self love. You're perfect the way you are. And Those are the extremes. Those are kind of the all and nothing extremes. And what we need to figure out is what combination of those two things do I need right now? If they're on a spectrum, where do I need to be? How can I treat myself with the compassion that I deserve? And also recognize that there are things that I need to do to change this.

12:17 So yeah, it's not like you just need to sit around saying, well, once I love myself, then I can start taking action. All this stuff can happen at once, but you do want to be cautious about being too much of one or the other and finding kind of where, where, where to blend those two things so that you feel good and you're showing up. Yeah, perfect. So, in, in process of doing that, You're going to make mistakes, like, that's, I always tell my clients, there's not a single one of my clients that reaches her goal weight and doesn't overeat along the way, occasionally you will, because that happens.

12:58 There's nobody that reaches their goal weight and didn't miss a workout. So when you were talking about like that way to the left or. I don't know which side it is, but way to one extreme, which is like the masculine energy. The first thing that came to my mind is like 75 hard, which allows for zero, zero mistakes, zero days off, zero, like you have to start over or something like, please, please don't do that. So that's like the perfectionist mentality. How do we get out of that? That's an awesome point. Awesome question. And I think hearing things like this is the first step, because we don't talk about this very often. We don't talk about the mistakes or the quote unquote failures.

13:42 The messing up. So we end up kind of developing this belief that we're the only one that it happens to that we're the only one struggling and right. And part of We're the only years ago, I started developing more of a client community among my one on one clients was because I would have back to back to back calls with women who would all be struggling with the same thing and all be saying, I just feel like I'm the only person who I'm like, you're not, you're really not like we all do. So just the awareness of that, I think is really important and the anticipation of it. So instead of setting the bar at perfection or bust, you should just go into it with the acknowledgement that I'm an imperfect human and there are going to be some bumps in the road.

14:23 That's fine. I will deal with them. And when you, I find the sweet spot to be about 85 percent consistency, where a lot of times we're hovering 75 ish and we're doing a lot of the stuff well. And we're frustrated because it's not seeming to work. And it's not that anything necessarily needs to change drastically. It's just that that consistency needs to be bumped up a little bit. without then saying, Oh, if this doesn't, if this isn't working, I must need to be perfect. Like, no, just a smaller job, just a little bit more. So I, whenever I'm working on a new habit, I approach it, say, I'll look at the next 30 days and I say, I'm going to try to do, or I will do this thing 26 out of the next 30 days, right from the jump, I'm building in stuff's going to happen.

15:08 If you think about it, you don't, there's nothing in your life that you do every single day. You, although you are a person who cares about your oral hygiene and who brushes your teeth regularly, there have been times that you've fallen asleep and you haven't done it. Or you rush out of the house and you realize to your horror that you, you know, forgot to do it. don't have a meltdown about that. You're just like, Oh, shoot. I'll brush my teeth again when I have a chance. So, if you think about it in those terms, I feel like our exercise and our nutrition is one of the only areas of our lives where we allow a small slip up to become this big thing. Another, mouth related example is like you run out of flossers.

15:52 You're not like, Oh my goodness, you don't have this identity crisis. I can't believe I let this happen. I guess I'm not somebody who cares about flossing anymore. You just buy more flossers and you start again. So if you take that same really just rational approach to your workouts, to your food, you just let the bumps happen. And you're like, okay, it's fine. It's what I do most of the time that matters. And. The occasional, you know, slip up doesn't need to rock me. So I think just setting the stage with that expectation to begin with is really important. this is really akin to my concept called the very next bite, because a lot of times we let those slip ups then become the entire week become, well, you know, we went to brunch on Saturday morning and so now the whole weekend is shot so, you know, you overeat at brunch on Saturday morning, that's fine.

16:41 The, the very next bite says, let's just wait for hunger. We wait until that happens again. And then we eat on plan on our very next bite. We eat whatever we would normally. Eat. And so that's a, just a concept I use so that we don't let those slips slip ups become the whole weekend, the whole week, the whole month, because one is then that 15%, but the whole weekend becomes into that 75, 65 percent where we're just, I just reversed my percentages, but I think you get the idea. Yeah. We have something very similar. We call it, you know, not, not missing twice missing being whatever, you know, that looks like for you.

17:22 It's like, right. Just don't let it snowball. Just put a little bit more effort into, all right, I'm not feeling great about what just happened. So how do I make sure that it doesn't snowball? And on that note, Also training yourself to. understand what kind of mental leaps your brain is making. Because the reason overeating at brunch on Saturday snowballs into the whole weekend is because of the way you're thinking about it. You're telling yourself, I messed up. I blew it. This weekend is already a bust. So it doesn't matter what else I do. The only reason you react the way you are is because that's what you're telling yourself. Whereas if you tell yourself, I overate at brunch because I'm human, and it was really good, and it just happens sometimes.

18:06 Then you're like, oh, that's really no big deal. I'll just wait, like you said, wait till I'm hungry, eat something that I feel good about. It doesn't need to be a thing. So learning to actually ask yourself, why is this feeling so bad? What am I telling myself this means? And then help you see like, what? That's a stretch. I know that's not really true. And then you can, you can act accordingly. Just really quickly, the book I was mentioning refers to making learning sized mistakes. And it has this visual of, you have a bag full of like a hundred marbles, and each marble is a learning size mistake. And your goal as a beginner is to empty that bag as quickly as possible.

18:46 As in, make as many mistakes as you can, as quickly as possible, because those are how you learn. So if you're, if you're trying not to make any mistakes, you are likely not going to end up doing very much because you don't want to try and fail. Whereas if you just flip that on its head and you make. scaling and learning the goal, you're a lot more willing to try stuff and then just see what happens. And that experience and then your reflection on it and your learning from it is how you do better in the future. So I just thought that was so Powerful is it just gives you something. It's almost like in, you know, business where you're pitching and you say, I'm, I'm going for a hundred no's is you've turned the no from something that you're dreading to something that you want, because you know, that if I get enough no's, eventually I'm going to get a yes.

19:37 So if you give yourself permission to try and do to the best of your ability and then learn and then grow from it, it feels so much better. And you realize how much you can expedite the process just from, um, Implementing without the fear of being imperfect. So an example of that, I, I would guess is and I'd love to hear some examples from you as well. It when people are first learning to use the hunger scale and like, depend on their own body to determine their when they're hungry when they're full. I'm like, okay. I don't want to see a record come back that every single meal was a three and a three, negative three, positive three. Cause mine goes from negative 10 to positive 10. I'm like, you're not trying.

20:18 I want to see it all over the place. And, and that they are thinking that's failing. If they wait too long or eat too soon or eat too much, like I want you to see like. Do I need this much? Eat a little less. See, I think I'm at a two. I think I'm at a four. I want you to experiment. And they think that's a failure if they don't eat right between the threes because that's the ultimate goal, if you will. But would that be an example of a learning size mistake? That's an excellent example. Yeah. And I think the, just kind of the, the desire to do everything right, or when you're working with a coach to, you know, be the, be the good student and Show good work to the detriment of being honest and being vulnerable and just trying things.

21:10 So, yeah, if you're. If you're showing a reflection that, Oh yeah, I never got too hungry. I never got too full. Well, it sounds like you were probably either kind of gaming the system or not allowing yourself the opportunity to get too hungry or too full. And the point is to have these experiences so you can learn from them. It's kind of like when you start learning about how to meal plan or meal prep to help set yourself up for success and. you know, maybe you under or overshoot how much food you would need, or you make a recipe that was a total flop, or you, um, yeah, just like any of those things where the, I think a lot of our kind of knee jerk reaction is, well, that was a failure.

21:56 Of course it's not, because Now, you know, and you can mix that recipe or you can buy more, you can buy less, whatever it is like without the experience, you don't know what needs to change and everything as much as you can have coaches like us guiding you and helping expedite the process at the end of the day, you're a unique individual and there is a very big component. of experimentation and trial and error. And if you're not willing to do those things, then you're never really going to master the skills that you need to be successful long term and to trust yourself to be able to do these things long term. Yeah.

22:36 So I think we've given several examples, but do you have anything in particular if someone's really stuck in like, Oh, this is a failure on how to bounce back quickly from that? Definitely like the not, you know, don't miss twice, very next bite. Anything else that people could use maybe in the gym as well, where they're bouncing back more quickly from a quote unquote failure, I think one of the most overlooked, really simple things we can do is be better at setting realistic goals. A lot of times we feel like we've failed because we set the bar way too high in the first place and which is back to that all or nothing Right, right.

23:21 Then we fall short. It feels bad. We don't want to do anything after that. Eventually, we regroup. We do it again. So, if you're feeling like you've, like you've failed and you're feeling down, the most important thing is that you just start getting some more wins under your belt, that you get a little bit of momentum back. So, um. If you over eight or you skipped a workout or whatever it is, give yourself the opportunity to figure out what caused it. That is it that you were trying to do too much. Was it, you know, poor planning? Was it just you made the conscious choice not to there's, you know, unpack that piece of it. But ultimately. When you're setting goals, I would like you to be at least a nine out of 10 on a confidence scale so that we're not basing our expectations of ourselves off the ideal best week possible.

24:14 We're basing them off reality. Look at last week. What did you accomplish last week? What's a little bit more than that? And that really is the key to getting your confidence back, rebuilding that consistency, proving to yourself that the occasional flip up doesn't matter because you can get yourself back into the groove sooner than later. And it doesn't take long and really, The, you know, don't miss twice the next bite that is, that is a way to get yourself a win that sort of feels like it helps write the universe and kind of counter that and show you, all right, I did that, that feels good. And then you want to do a little bit more and a little bit more. So I think it, it really is just about setting small goals that you can do.

24:57 And then celebrating them instead of dismissing them and telling yourself, Oh, of course, you know, it was only a 10 minute walk. So it was nothing to be happy about. Celebrate just doing what you said you would do and allow yourself to feel good. Cause you want to feel good on this, along this process. It's goes back to talking about, you know, the self love is you want this to be enjoyable. You want it to, to be positive. And that means stopping and giving yourself credit where it's due. Yeah, for sure. I find clients often are like, well, you know, I didn't eat that thing, but it was because it didn't taste very good. And they kind of gloss over and I'm like, listen, did you ever do that in the past? Or did you just habitually clean your plate?

25:38 And they're like, Oh, yeah, I used to just eat whatever because it was there because it was food because you know, and so even those little things like give yourself credit in the way that you've changed when I think the way Esther and I definitely both work with clients, the changes are so small and incremental that from one week to the next, you're not really noticing it. But from week one to week 12, it's. drastic. And so you don't give yourself credit. So be sure as you're thinking about those realistic goals, write them down. And even if you don't look at them again, I mean, of course, I'm a fan of looking at them, but just so you have the record.

26:22 I've like, where am I at now? Don't just write where we're going, but where are, where am I at right now? If you're like, I want to increase my mobility, I currently stretch for five minutes once a week. That's what I currently do. Or maybe you currently do nothing. And in 12 weeks, you're getting to stretching three times a week. And you're like, it's not really enough. It's a huge difference though. And so with your goals, write down where you're at so that you can see what the difference is. Thanks. Yeah, you're exactly right. And I think we, we convinced ourselves that the small things don't matter. So then we don't do them and then they never have the opportunity to add up, but it is all about the small things that they do add up and you just need to convince yourself that those small things are worth doing.

27:09 Just most of the time. And I think what's, what's such an interesting kind of double edged sword is, on one hand, you can tell yourself they're so small that they don't matter. But the flip side of that coin is that if they're so small, then it's really no skin off your back to just do them. And if you just do them for long enough, you'll see that they actually do matter. And then it's a lot easier to keep going. But I think you nailed it that we really have a tendency to overestimate what can change in a week or a month and really underestimate what can change in six months to a year. And it's really interesting. I noticed actually just earlier today, I was thinking about Some of my personal professional goals and how my timeframe has really changed from, all right, now what, where do I wanna be next month, but more so, all right, by the end of the year I think I can, you know, I can lay out a, b, c steps and I'm really thinking much longer term.

28:06 And I think that's, that's a testament to a lot of the, the mindset work. But if you start. Thinking about your health goals in the same way, instead of, you know, how many weeks is it going to take me to lose 20 pounds, but more so what is the lifestyle that I want to be living this time next year or in five years? And what does that version of myself. Do that. I'm not currently doing. And how do I just sort of reverse engineer that I don't need to get there overnight. I don't need to start doing all those things immediately, but what are the differences between me now and where I want to be then, and how can I lay those changes out in a way that doesn't feel overwhelming to actually start implementing. Perfect. I love thinking about my future self.

28:49 Right. Isn't that so cool. I think it's interesting, obviously in life coaching and health coaching, probably most of us would say things like that, but that's a really rare way to feel. I think. I don't think most people are thinking about their future selves at all. And if they are, they're not thinking about her with excitement. They're just sort of thinking, well, it's going to be more of the same, but it's such a, such a really refreshing outlook to have that kind of relationship with yourself where you do want to think about your future and you are fired up thinking about what you are going to create for yourself. yeah, for sure. Okay, um, I always like to ask at the end, what did we miss?

29:30 What do you love talking about? What do you love your clients to know or your listeners to know? Like your kind of little passion project that we didn't get to cover. One thing, this is, this is very related. When we're talking about. implementing small goals. I think part of why we dismiss them as not being impactful enough is because we don't have any sort of visual for how those small choices add up. So I'm a huge fan of a physical habit tracker, which essentially boils down to an adult sticker chart, but it really helps to have something. I have mine on my fridge right now because each month I have a If you give yourself some little bit of positive reinforcement at the end of the day, A sticker, a smiley face, a dot, whatever, you know, whatever it is for you.

30:23 It feels good. It, it helps you see that that small decision, whatever it was happened, that it counted, that it makes a difference. And it also gives you the opportunity to then zoom out and look at your weeks, your months, and a pride yourself on what you're doing well, and B to start to see patterns in, you know what I would have said, I was doing these things most of the time. As it turns out, it's maybe more like four days a week. It helps you see patterns like, yeah, I'm nailing this stuff Monday through Friday, but weekends, I don't have a sticker in sight. So I think developing a simple tool like that for yourself, I have a, a habit tracker that you're welcome to put the link in the show notes if people want to download, but even just using a blank calendar, giving yourself something to Just take a second out of your day and be like, good job, Lisa.

31:18 You did the thing you said you were going to do. Just those small votes of encouragement can really help you with the consistency that's going to lead to the results that you want. Yeah, adult brains just like children's brains. They like accumulation that that's actually like there is real science behind that that accumulation is very motivating. So you can even do like, like marbles in a jar, like your brain loves to see the marbles like fill up in the jar. So yeah, Color in the boxes, put a sticker, put a marble in the jar. Accumulation of any kind is super motivating. So yeah, we'll definitely put that link in the show notes and where can people find you online?

32:03 Yeah. I just wanted to note that my very first business. was called A Jar of Marbles for that very reason. I haven't thought about it in a long time. I had this like super basic logo made and I ended up changing it because it, it wasn't, like obvious enough to people. They were like, what is like, so you sell marbles or like, what is it that you do? But I love that example. And it really is like, marbles are cool. It's an easy, easy visual. I love that one. So we, like I mentioned at the beginning, uh, Lisa was on my podcast. It's called Live Diet Free. Her episode is 207. That's a really great way to find me and I'm also on Facebook. I have a group called Live Diet Free. You can check that out and my website is just EstherAvent. com.

32:44 All right. Well, thanks so much, Esther. It's been a pleasure chatting with you. Thank you. If this episode has helped you in any way, all I ask is for you to share it, share it with one friend or share it on your social media tag me, and I'll give you a shout out. I'd also love for you to leave a five-star rating on apple and Spotify and review the show on apple podcasts. Have a great week and as always, thanks for listening to the eat. Well think. Well live well podcast