Disordered Eating vs. Eating Disorders and Body Dysmorphia with Anna Hindell [Ep. 39]

Anna: 0:00

It's really about. are these thought patterns around food, around your body interrupting your life, and then interrupting your actions. Like, oh, you know, I don't wanna go to that party because I don't think I look good in anything. You know, it can start small, but it starts chipping away at your social life or chipping away at your ability to show up, feel confident, feel present.

Lisa: 0:27

This is Anna Hindel, my guest. Today we are gonna be talking about the difference between disordered eating and an eating disorder. We're also going to in a little to body dysmorphia, having bad body image days and really this, like she said, Finding out if this your ability to show up and feel confident and feel present in your body. So welcome to episode 39 eating Versus Eating Disorders, and Body Dysmorphia with Anna Hinde. Welcome to Eat Well, Think Well, Live Well; the podcast for women who want to lose weight, but are tired of counting and calculating all the food. I'm your host, Lisa Salsbury. I'm a certified health and weight loss coach and life coach, and most importantly a recovered chronic dieter. I'll teach you to figure out why you are eating when you aren't hungry, instead of worrying so much about what you are eating. Hey everyone. we jump into my interview Anna today, I wanna remind you that my group program is open. So that is the Eat Well Think well Live Well group coaching program, and that is going to be perfect for if been wanting to give coaching a try. But maybe you've been stopped by the cost because group coaching is about half the one-on-one coaching, or maybe you just didn't wanna do it by yourself. This is gonna be great to do it together as a group, but quickly remind you of my three guarantees. Number one, you're going to first five pounds. That is a guarantee. You'll most likely lose more, but everyone has to start with the first five, and I'll make sure that you are up to lose as much as like to. Really, it's just the getting started. That is what is stopping you most of the time. So let's just get over that five right? Number two, you're gonna know exactly what to do when a craving strikes. So I know you really want to be able to walk through a room where there's brownies on the counter and not. Need to grab one. That's food freedom to seafood on the counter and know that you could eat it if you wanted to, but you aren't compelled to. You could plan it, you could wait. There's all sorts of things you do, but you don't want to feel compelled to eat it. you're going to know what to do when you have a craving. And the last thing is that you will learn what foods and what amounts of those foods really truly work for your body. Because a lot of times you tell me, I just wanna eat. I just wanna be able to eat whatever I want. What you mean there is I just wanna eat of the junk foods and not gonna stop you from eating whatever you truly want to eat, but what you will learn in this program, in one of my guarantees, is that you will get down to figuring out what foods actually work well for you and in what amounts. This ends up being actually what you want to eat because that's how you'll discover that you function at your best. So if this sounds perfect for you and I think it probably is, go ahead and grab the link to in show notes and get signed up today. Our first group session is next Tuesday, the 25th, so if you're listening to this at a later date, there will be future groups. So still check the notes. a list if you miss this session, so no worries if you're listening to this a later But if you are listening to this during April, We are starting this April 25th, and so I would love to have you in the group. All right, onto our interview today. welcome back to The Eat Well Think Well Live Well podcast. I have Anna Hindell here who's a psychotherapist and yoga teacher. I am excited. She reached out to me and offered to be on the podcast. We're gonna be talking about a lot of things with disordered eating, body dysmorphia. But first I'm gonna have her introduce herself and let us know a little bit about what she.

Anna: 4:37

Hi Lisa. I'm really happy to be here. Uh, my name's Anna Hindell. I'm a psychotherapist and Iyengar yoga teacher in New York City. So I'd like to help people get connected with what's going on in their body with what's going on in their mind. So I work with teenagers, adults, and couples on issues about eating disorders, relationships. Anxiety, depression, people that are generally stuck in one way or another in their life, and I help them understand themselves so that they can make the best decisions about how to move forward with what they want.

Lisa: 5:18

Great. Okay. You said something, something yoga teacher, which I did not get. Ingar some. Tell me what that means.

Anna: 5:26

yeah, so Iyengar yoga is, Iyengar Yoga. Yeah. Named after Bks Iyengar, who has, who has died. But it is a type of yoga where we use a lot of props. The rope walls, the chairs, the blocks, the bolsters, the straps, and it's a. An approach of really using classical yoga poses and these props to make yoga accessible to anyone in any condition, in any body. So it's like whether you're in a wheelchair, whatever weight you're at, whatever's going on, there's always something for you to do. We can get you into a pose, we can get you into the experience of doing yoga. So, It really has nothing to do with how flexible you are, what you look like, what your poses look like. It's really about the internal work.

Lisa: 6:18

Okay, great. There's so many different types of yoga. I've had a. A yoga teacher on, I think she told me there was like, I don't know, 40 or 50 types of yoga in.

Anna: 6:27

And then when it comes down to it, I'm like, if you're doing yoga and it works for you, just move toward what makes you happy and what you know, the teacher. and, and creating a good relationship there,

Lisa: 6:40

sure. So when you work with clients one-on-one, do you primarily talk about eating disorders and disordered eating? Is this kind of your focus?

Anna: 6:50

you know, it's a subspecialty. And before I started private practice, I worked in public and private schools in New York and particularly teenage girls. you know, it sort of brought. Me more into, uh, this work as a subspecialty because you know, the girls' bodies are changing in a very public way. Those feelings start to come up. The messaging we get is that hips and boobs equal. Fat or could equal fat depending on, I guess, what your ideal body is, perhaps. Um, cultural messages as well. And you know, that plus my background. I was a gymnast growing up and I competed and I grew up. you know, as my body changing, wearing a leotard, and I had disordered eating myself and worked through that. And it really inspired me to continue working with people with these situations because I know the potential of what it can be like to relearn how to eat, relearn, how to have a great relationship with your body, relearn how to live in your body in a healthy way. So, Today. People do come to me with that. But what I notice is that, people come with a range of issues. You know, you might, someone might be in the middle of a divorce and then it's like a O P S I binge and purge late at night. It's almost like this other postscript or, you know, I have. Someone who's pregnant and now the body issues are coming up because you know your body's, her body's changing and that's bringing up feelings. So it's not ever this straightforward thing. It's usually, it could be a main symptom and symptomatic of other things going on.

Lisa: 8:52

Yeah. Interesting. You bring up pregnancy because I've told this story on the podcast before, but I have four children and when I was pregnant with my youngest, I have the distinct memory and she's 15 now, so it's been quite some time, but I do have this distinct memory of thinking to myself, okay, this is it. This is the last time it'll be okay for you to be fat. Obviously pregnancy is not that. but I just illustrative of where my brain was at that time and where like how, how my confusion was with what my body should look like and basically I was thinking, this is the last time I can eat these foods guilt free. And so it created a lot of of issues there and led to what I have described before as disordered eating. So let, let's do, talk about that. one of the things that led to my years and years of on and off dieting started in high school for me with being told that I was overweight. Even though as I look back in photos, I definitely was not. Um, but, you know, several adults. Told me that either directly, I had some adults tell me directly, and then I indirectly through just encouraging of the dieting that I was doing, um, and then through those nine, 10 years of having babies and breastfeeding and the rollercoaster that that puts a woman's body on is what was really difficult for me. Mentally and led really into, okay, I've just, I've just got to figure this out. It's like somehow having my weight go up and down through those times that I wasn't figuring it out, instead of knowing that's exactly what it should have. Obviously I have a lot of compassion for that girl that I was back then now, but at the time, like I just know what I was thinking and so long story short. I was never diagnosed with an eating disorder. What it would have been would be orthorexia, the obsession with eating healthy. But now I recognize it for sure as disordered eating. And I think that is far more common than what we realize. Things like having extreme anxiety when I didn't know what the exact nutritional information was at a restaurant like I needed to know not just the calorie count, but I needed the macro count as well. And, you know, bringing the food scale. Dinner table with all my children and telling them I'm only weighing my portion to make sure I get enough protein because I lift lift weights. Like that was a total lie, and I knew it was at the time, but that's how I. Basically covered up the fact that I was trying not to eat too much. That's disordered eating. Right. So let's talk about that from your professional opinion. Like, I know that, like I can recognize it in my own self and give you examples, but tell us more about what is disordered eating versus an eating disorder.

Anna: 11:52

Yeah. You know, I can get out the dsm, but I'm. Gonna do that, I would put everyone's asleep. the diagnostic criteria for eating disorders such as anorexia nervosa, or bulimia or binge eating disorder, are so stringent and there's a lot of criteria that you need to meet, and to that extent, There's probably fewer people with diagnostic eating disorders than we think, but a much greater number of people with disordered eating. And so It's not a diagnostic term, but it's a term that clinicians use to describe what's going on. And I think your example of what you were doing in your life is a perfect example and it's usually, it's almost always co-occurring with something like depression or anxiety or an O C D, um, obsessive compulsive disorder. So there. Criteria that is close to diagnostic. So disordered eating is pretty much what you would think of. It could be in a more restrictive zone of, oh, I really shouldn't eat this much. Any any thought pattern that starts to interrupt the natural cycle of, I feel hungry and now I'm gonna move toward food to sat satiate my need. I'm gonna digest it. Feel the digestion, feel the satisfaction, and move on with my day. I mean, that's ideal for all of us. And any way in which our thoughts interrupt the, I really shouldn't eat this much, or I can't feel satisfied, I'm gonna keep eating. I just almost like a little bit dissociative. And you just kind of, people talk about like inhaling the food, you know, and we've all experienced that at times when, you know, you don't eat all day or for too long. But we wanna look at when things, uh, chronicity and intensity of these thought patterns. You know, it's not just a bad day or even a bad week. It's like over time are these thought patterns getting in the way of. Your relationship with food, your relationship to take in food, keep it in, and then we get into, you know, the other relationship with your physical body and that could be get into somebody dysmorphia. Which could sometimes start, that's when it's like you think of looking at yourself as if you're looking in a funny mirror. You know, you might be tall, but you see yourself as short and kind of plumbed when you're, you have a very different body or vice versa. And then

Lisa: 14:47

And with that, let me, sorry. Let me just ask here. I feel like similar to disordered eating versus an eating disorder, it's kind of like having a bad, bad body image day and having body dysmorphia. We. We all have those days where you're like, well, I look like a busted can biscuits, but it, when if it doesn't cause a lot of disruption in the day, you might just say, well, that's, we're just having a bad body image day like, that kind of thing. It's kind of the difference between when I talk about emotions with my clients and we talk about the emotions say of depression, and I always say, this is little d depression. We can have a sadness without being Big D. Clinical diagnosable depression. Yeah.

Anna: 15:26

Yeah, I think that you're right on with that. I think that it's kind of like. We look in the mirror, oh, that angle. Or, you know, I didn't sleep enough. Everything just feels horrible today. You know, my mood and how I look. And it's just gonna be one of those days. So those are one-offs. And, or it might be a week like that, or if there's a, an event that may interrupt. your appetite. You know, sometimes after surgeries we lose our appetite or during our cycle we wanna eat more. These are kinda roll with it type of things. And, and I work on flexibility sometimes with, with clients and listening to your body's cues and we'll get more into that. But it's, it's really about. are these thought patterns around food, around your body interrupting your life, and then interrupting your actions. Like, oh, you know, I don't wanna go to that party because I don't think I look good in anything. You know, it can start small, but it starts chipping away at your social life or chipping away at your ability to show up, feel confident, feel present. and you know, then the extremes are, you know, starting to isolate yourself. and different variations of ways that, we start to feel negative toward ourselves. You know, it's interesting because just like your story of you were growing up and there, it sounds like. there came to some point where you were like, enough is enough. Or I'm doing this dieting and this isn't working for me anymore, and.

Lisa: 17:16

Oh, I think what you're referring to is I, I was thinking like, I gotta get my weight under control. It wasn't really

Anna: 17:22

oh,

Lisa: 17:22

Yeah, no, it wasn't until years later. Yeah, years later, I. Realize I came into coaching and realized like, oh, the thing that no diet ever gave me was the mindset piece that I offer now with my clients is just the idea that when you don't feel like eating what's on your plan, like no diet gives you strategies for that besides like, oh, if you have a sugar craving, choose some gum. So, you know, I was slightly overweight and had a gum addiction,

Anna: 17:52

Right, right. And then

Lisa: 17:54

I was like,

Anna: 17:55

our tea, and then we get, uh, headaches from,

Lisa: 17:57

Tmg. Yeah, I was having like major, um, like stomach upset from the xylitol actually, because I was chewing like two packs of gum a day.

Anna: 18:07

yeah. Right, right. And I've seen that before, um, with people trying not to, So I guess what I'm getting at, you know, there's no, there's no direct way to intervene. It's almost like saying, someone who's starting to play around with eating with disordered eating. there, there's always a need underneath that. And what's, you know, what's that need? Okay, so I'm just trying to lose five pounds, but then that becomes another five. Or, when the actions and the thought patterns continue in such a way that. it's no longer working for the person and it becomes more disruptive for their life. Whether that's a shame cycle or just a friend maybe saying like, what's up, you're changing or I've noticed this. That's when it's up to the person to come forward and reach out for. But until that happens, it's really, it's up to the person to realize with their own awareness, oh, I'm doing this thing and it's monopolizing a lot of my mind space, which it does because we have to eat many times a day. It's not like a drug where you can go to a 12 step and quit it and then get the support you need. So it's something you have to always face again and again. So I think it becomes really, constant, but also the secrecy about, disordered eating is so common and maybe you experienced that. I remember feeling that way when I was a teenager because you know, you don't wanna let on that you're restricting. You don't wanna let on that you have, that you're trying to lose weight because then it's sort of admitting I don't like myself in this body. And you might wanna be giving off of a different, you know, um, there's usually a cognitive dissonance, like, I wanna be a Confident person in the world. Oh, but I really just wanna be a smaller size. I wanna be a, a smaller version of myself. I don't wanna hide in the world. I wanna start to be smaller. You know, there's a lot of different feelings going on, and I think it, when you start to notice that and you notice that that's where your mind is going, not being present with your friends, not being present with school or your work. and it does start to take a toll, whether that's depressive symptoms or anxious symptoms,

Lisa: 20:56

Mm-hmm.

Anna: 20:57

then hopefully there's some interception there to kind of, oh, let me check myself. Let me, let me reach out for help. Let me see. You know, what is this about?

Lisa: 21:11

One of the things I work with, My clients about when we're talking about like the, the relationship with food and that when you are saying like, we have to just, you know, we still have to eat every day. We can't just give it up. One of the things that we do is. Put everything on the table, meaning all foods are available to eat. There's nothing, I don't give any food lists of restrictions. Please don't eat this. Don't eat that. Only, only choose from this. That's really a disordered eating pattern when you have a list of foods that you can and cannot eat. So I always, tell them everything. Can be on your plan, and when you allow it all, then you can make conscious decisions about what you feel best eating. And so I find that this helps get out of that. I shouldn't be eating this kind of pattern because when you plan to have a cupcake and then you eat a cupcake, you can really drop a lot of that shame Because you say, I know I wanted to eat this. We're not eating it just at the drop of a hat because someone offered it or because, you know, we just had this uncontrolled, our craving, we planned it, we ate it. There's a lot of shame, eliminated there. So I don't know if there's something that's likewise we can do with body dysmorphia, because I find that works very well for disordered eating, but, Loving our bodies where they're at is something I would like to teach my clients better. What do you think on that?

Anna: 22:42

Yeah. there's so many directions I wanna go in, but I think. First and foremost, I really like to work from this mind body approach and no matter and, and I like to work with people through establishing their goals, it's like, okay, well what is it you really do wanna lose weight? Okay, that is fine if you wanna do that, but can we also work on accepting yourself as you are right now, and can you feel. Sense into your body in this moment. And I have people doing this with me in the room from body scans of feeling your feet, feeling your legs, feeling your seat, just getting into your breath. And you know, with these legs, do you feel what they do for you? Do they feel, can you feel how they take you places? Can you feel how you're, when you breathe? your ribs expand. And this can be really scary for people. It can be really scary for people who spend most of their day and life avoiding feeling anything. If they're hating on their body, disliking their body, desiring a different shape. So little by little. I really work with people to get them to feel their body, start to have some appreciation, not through here's a prescribed mantra and repeat this thing, but just by really taking them into their lives, like, okay, great, you're going to the beach. These legs are going to walk you into the water and help you swim, and can you feel your arms treading in the water and kind of getting them into a sense. What their body does for them, how they feel it, and then likening that to sitting down and eating that cupcake is, you know, do you taste it? Do you feel it? Do you feel how it satiates you and getting them into those, you know, um, other feelings that can be really scary about feeling their hunger. Chewing feeling their fullness and then just sitting with it. You know, I used to have this woman who would binge and purge multiple times a day, and during therapy we would have a snack together, and it was like very hard for her. She'd want to eat in front of me. That brought up some shame, and to eat slowly was this relearning of. oh, I can feel myself eating. This is, this is scary. This is hard. This is different, you know? But it was also her having a sense of herself in the room with me. So there was the relational piece, as well as starting to feel herself in the room.

Lisa: 25:52

So When you're on your own, if you're not working, you know, with a therapist or a coach to work on feeling all of the parts of your body and that sort of thing, what kind of techniques do you give folks to really stay connected with their body on a day-to-day basis when they're not with you?

Anna: 26:11

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, I, I like to do, have them do some general body scans. It can take less than a minute. you know, pausing three times a day and feel the weight of your seat in your chair. Just anything that will get them both present. And even if it's taking your hands and feeling your legs, like I'm not, I'm not sure how to feel into my body. Okay? Feel your legs. Get a sense of them. Take a hand to your chest. Feel your belly all these places. So it's almost like literally feeling yourself, but then it gives you a sense of, you know, I have this three-dimensional body. I'm not just this neurotic mind that's kind of going in circles about what am I going to eat, what am you know, all of the anxious or depressive thoughts that are going on.

Lisa: 27:08

Mm.

Anna: 27:09

and you know that that's a really healthy thing to do no matter what's going on, to just pause and feel what's happening in my body because it's really the signals from our body that inform the mind. And the more we can get in touch with that, the more we get in touch with, oh, this is right for me, or this is wrong for me, or How do I make decisions? I'm getting this information. I'm hungry now because I feel my stomach growling. Okay, so I'm gonna move toward food. You know, some of these things are seemingly simple, but can be really complicated when you've unlearned how to eat through that hunger cycle.

Lisa: 27:56

for sure. I, that's something that I'm really big on is getting back in touch with our hunger. I feel like. There's a twofold problem there. Number one, I think people are afraid of getting hungry, and I think it's because we've been advertised diets that tell us loose 20 pounds, never feel hungry. Like why? Why do we have to never feel hungry? And I think it's, it's just a natural body signal. I feel like I have to go pee sometimes during the day, and I'm not like, great. great here that here's that body signal. Like I'm not mad about it, right? Unless I'm like in target but like we're not mad about these other body signals so much as we are about hunger. And so I think we've been promised to lose weight without feeling it. And so somehow we have decided that hunger is bad. So I think that's number one. And then number two, I think that there is, um, glorification of overeating in our society with our giant portions, with our giant things that were served. And then these cutesy little terms like, oh, food, hashtag food coma, right? Like, it's actually not that comfortable to be so full that you need to lay down in a dark room. Like that's, it's not that comfortable. And so I think for those two reasons, both on the hunger side and the fullness side, we just. Are out of touch with our hunger, and people ask me this all the time, like, but how do I start to feel it again? I, I mean, I know what I would say, but I'm really interested to know what, how do you help your clients get back in touch with their hunger signals?

Anna: 29:38

Yeah, well, you. There. I think about someone I used to work with who would drink diet soda, diet drinks all day as a way not to get hungry. And it was like scary for her, but it was like, well, what would happen if you went an hour without doing? What if you won an hour and a half? What if you won two hours? and we, we worked with a team with a, I like working with the nutritionist who's working, you know, in that nutritionist, um, collaboration. So she had some hunger charts and it was like, okay, you know, if 10 is starving, it's like, let's wait till you get to a five. Let's wait till you get to a six and just feel. You know, let's wait till you get to a seven before you, you know, you can drink that drink, but wow, what if you ate something? What if that signal was, what if you just felt that growl?

Lisa: 30:43

Mm.

Anna: 30:43

And, you know, these are kind of some, again, seemingly little steps, but they're really big deal for someone who, and it wasn't like, all right, you're already restricting. Let's restrict more. It was more of. you're drowning yourself. Let's just see what you feel underneath that.

Lisa: 31:02

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. When you take away that, what I call a buffer, take away that buffer. What? What are you really feeling?

Anna: 31:09

Yeah.

Lisa: 31:11

People ask me like, what does it feel like to be hungry? Like, what signals am I looking for? And that's, I'm always like, what? You know, like, has it been so long? And it's

Anna: 31:25

it really has been. And something I heard you say, was it it, the moral judgments we have in our society around, um, Like, oh, eating the cupcake, you know? Oh, it's sinful. You know, you know, you know it's bad. Or when you were pregnant, like this is the last time I get to be bad, and it. Reminds me of just how easily, how easily we start to put judgements on both hunger and then indulging in that hunger. Because when you feel your hunger, there really is a desire. There's a, a real movement toward, you have to act, you have to move toward that food to get it. And, you know, what does our society think about desire and, and women, not that this is always about women, but it's like there's, there's a morality and judgments upon that. And, um, a lot of value upon blunting your desires and working harder than that and getting above them. You know what I mean? So you know,

Lisa: 32:45

like controlling them. Controlling.

Anna: 32:47

them. Yeah. And then we get into food. you know, then we get into controlling food and you know, and then food starts to have judgments. This is good, this is bad. And we impose all of those things. And again, all of these things that just interrupt our animal hunger satiation cycle.

Lisa: 33:10

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Cause I always say when we label food good and bad, we're gonna inadvertently label. Label ourselves good and bad for eating those things. I was good because I had a salad. which usually leads to, so I deserve

Anna: 33:25

Right.

Lisa: 33:25

Y, Z, you know, sugar, feel filled food normally, you know, I think, and so when we drop those morality labels, we tend to be able to include more foods in our plans. And surprisingly, we tend to pick foods that actually make us feel good because the truth is, I don't feel great eating cupcakes every single day.

Anna: 33:51

Right,

Lisa: 33:51

just doesn't actually feel good in my body. Like I don't feel energized and like it feels heavy and kind of when I eat something that's too much sugar, I feel a little nausea And so when we really say like, this is a food that I can eat, but what I want to do is choose foods that help me feel great. and when they're all available to us, I find that the choices tend to lean towards things that are going to, help you feel at your best, right, which tends to be single ingredient, whole food type ingredients.

Anna: 34:26

Yeah. Yeah. And I love how you present. all foods are great. All foods are fine. because I do work with that paradigm as like, there's no good and bad, it's just what you choose and let's work toward, you know what, you're moving toward what feels good. And sometimes people don't even know what feels good, and that's a whole learning in itself. Again, I'm getting more in touch with like, oh, I had more energy when I did that, or I felt, well rest. and these are all signs of getting in touch with your experience, which can be so hard for people who have body dysmorphia, who have the disordered eating,

Lisa: 35:14

Mm-hmm.

Anna: 35:15

but it's exciting because there's so much potential.

Lisa: 35:19

Yeah.

Anna: 35:19

Yeah.

Lisa: 35:20

Well, speaking of working with you, tell people how they can find you. I know you're in New York,

Anna: 35:25

Yeah, so My website is www.annahindell.com. I am just licensed to work with people through psychotherapy in New York, but I can work through coaching in other states. and, I would love to hear from people if they have questions, if something I said resonated with them. I'm also on Instagram at Anna Hindel Psychotherapy. I'm on LinkedIn and Facebook under Anna Hindel.

Lisa: 35:55

Okay. Well, we'll definitely put all those links in the show notes and I really appreciate your time and your wisdom and sharing them with my audience.

Anna: 36:03

Thank you, Lisa. It's been great.

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Don't forget to check the show notes for that

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Lisa: 36:48

hey, thanks for listening today. If you're ready to get some personalized coaching from me, I'd encourage you to schedule a free strategy session. Visit www.wellwithlisa.as.me or it's easier just to find that link in the show notes. We'll talk about where you currently are with your weight loss goals. And I'll give you some actionable tools. You can start implementing right away. Before you go, make sure you subscribe to the podcast so you can receive new episodes, right when they're released. And if you're learning something new and enjoying the podcast, I'd love for you to leave me a five star rating and a review. Thanks again for joining me, Lisa Salisbury in this episode of Eat Well, Think Well, Live Well.