Sleep with Coach Janet Whalen [Ep. 6]

Lisa: 0:03

Welcome to Eat Well, Think Well, Live Well; the podcast for women who want to lose weight, but are tired of counting and calculating all the food. I'm your host, Lisa Salsbury. I'm a certified health and weight loss coach and life coach, and most importantly a recovered chronic dieter. I'll teach you to figure out why you are eating when you aren't hungry, instead of worrying so much about what you are eating. Hello, I have a super fun show for you today. This is an interview I recorded several weeks ago while I was still working on getting my first few episodes done. So I've been anticipating publishing this episode for a while. Now. I'm excited to introduce you to Janet Whalen she's a sleep coach and is going to teach us what to do when we can't fall asleep. What to do when we wake up in the night and all sorts of good things, I've actually been referencing this interview to a couple of my clients, and I keep telling them like, don't worry, I'm going to publish that episode soon. And then you can download her free guide. And so I'm excited to offer this to my clients as well as to all of you listeners. So I'm glad it's finally here. Real quick though, before we jump in, I just want to remind you that if you leave me a review and you send me a screenshot of that, I am going to buy your Starbucks this morning. That can be down on apple or Spotify. And you can email that to me hello@wellwithlisa.com or you can DM it to me on Instagram. Secondly, I'm also doing a new promotion for shares. So while you're listening to the podcast, take a screenshot of that and share it to your social media. Or you can share one of my posts about the podcast tag me in that so I can see it. And I'll enter you into a drawing for a hundred dollars Amazon gift And this can be done for every single episode. So no limit on shares or like entries into the drawing. If you share all five or six that I have published so far, then that is that many entries. So details on that are on my Instagram, but I just wanted to remind you about that. Okay Let's get right into it. All right. Hi, Janet. I'm here today with Janet Whalen she is a sleep coach, which I find fascinating because many times we discuss sleep with my clients. So welcome. Janet. Do you

Janet: 2:22

Yeah, thanks, Lisa. I'm really excited to be here and I'm thrilled that you invited me. I am a sleep coach. I call myself a sleep and stress management coach because a lot of what I end up doing is helping women with stress. Probably as we get talking, we'll discuss that, you know, a lot of the, the causes of insomnia are really about stress and not about sleep itself, but we'll get to that.

Lisa: 2:46

physical as what you

Janet: 2:47

yeah, yeah, yeah. so, I used to be a business coach and then in training, well, in, in my training at the life coach school, I decided to use my, what I was learning to try and figure out something to help myself while I was doing this thinking, well, if I can. Fix something of my own, what would it be? And I thought, well, it could be my lifelong insomnia and I did. And it was, I thought I had found sort of the answer to the universe's problems, right. Because who doesn't need help with their sleep while my husband doesn't, but a lot of women do. And, and I thought, well, I wonder if I could actually help other women with this. And it turns. I could. So, so I switched my niche altogether and I've been doing this for the last two years, I guess, two and a bit, and I love it. So, but I, aside from that, I'm, I'm a mom. I have two. Boys who are like 19 and 21 now, which I can hardly believe. I run a membership for, midlife women who are having sleep and stress problems, and it's called permission to sleep, but we can talk about a lot about all that other stuff after.

Lisa: 3:58

I love that name. Permission to sleep because sometimes it's so strange how we feel like we're we have to have sleep problems as moms. Like we have to constantly be dieting and we have to, like, everyone is tired. Like, oh, I'm so tired. I didn't sleep. Well. It seems like a common topic of conversation. And I just have to interject by the way, Janet and I are on video, even though that's not gonna be out with the podcast. And she has the cutest pillow, it says I'm so good at sleeping. I can do it with my eyes closed.

Janet: 4:27

Yeah. I always keep that like you, so my clients can see that, cuz I think it's fun.

Lisa: 4:32

It is so cute. So I have to say that that is how I am. I've always been good at sleep and it's actually something, especially after, learning about coaching and about our thoughts. I consistently say I'm a good sleeper out loud when other people are like, I didn't sleep well. Or that sort of thing. I consistently say, oh, I'm such a good sleeper. I'm very good at it because I do think it's really important to tell my brain how good I am at sleeping. And in fact, my family loves to bring their own pillows wherever we go. And I think that's such a hassle and I'm always like, I'm a good sleeper. I can sleep anywhere on any pillow on any bed. And that did come to a head last weekend. Those pillows at that Airbnb I went to were it was rough, but I was like, I am a good sleeper. This is gonna be fine. It's gonna be fine. And it, it was, it was in the end, but, I've actually. I've been able to sleep in so many places in so many ways. My sister is constantly annoyed. We had a class together when we were in college, I would fall asleep in class. We went on a trip together. I was like, it's no problem for me to sleep on the plane. And she was just staring at me like, are you kidding me? So generally I've been great.

Janet: 5:56

we would've been drawing on your face with marker together.

Lisa: 6:01

thankfully she did not have a Sharpie handy, but, what, I'm all of that, all of that is to say the last few months we've been going through a kitchen remodel and I have been waking up. And I'm, as soon as I wake up, I'm like, what about that tile? What about that tile? What are we gonna do about that? What are we gonna do about that mistake? And I have been waking up at, roughly four or five in the morning, for days in a row, and then I'll get back to sleeping. So primarily for me, it's like an early morning waking. That I notice I wake up and I'm instantly thinking. Immediately. And so it becomes difficult to go back to sleep. So I really am relating to how you're saying it's sleep and stress management.

Janet: 6:44

Yeah. Cause what you're referring to is a lot of unresolved questions that your brain went to bed with. Right. And because it still had them, when you went to sleep, the minute you wake up, it's working on them again. And so, I do have a tool for that actually that I can share with you in a bit. But, that's, that's really typical. And a lot of in fact, most insomniacs complain. Racing minds and racing thoughts and not being able to turn their brain off. and that's what they think that's, what's causing the insomnia, but really it's just another symptom, right? It, it technically is causing the lack of sleep because when, when you are busy thinking and you start to worry your brain or your body has a stress response and the hormones that are sort of cosing through our system, when we're having a stress response are not really compatible with sleep. So. that, yeah, that's why it's really, when we think about a lot of, I'm not a medical doctor, I'm just gonna be really clear and upfront. This is not medical advice, but what we do know about sleep and stress is that, a lot of the illnesses that we think are caused by lack of sleep or poor sleep are the same illnesses that are caused by high unresolved stress. So. Of the sleep community kind of believes like, well, is it really the lack of sleep that's doing this? Or is it the unmanaged stress plus lack of sleep? Do you see what I'm saying? Because the result is the same. So if we can fix the stress, we can probably fix the sleep and therefore resolve the symptoms. but I also, I just wanna go back to something you were saying at the beginning, which is I'm a great sleeper, and I love that you offer that thought to yourself because when you think about. Our behaviors and our habits, they really do go along with the identity that we choose to claim for ourselves. Right. So when we say things to ourselves, anything you say after the words that I am, you will make true. right. Your brain will go. On a search to try and prove that that's the truth. So if you're saying I'm a terrible sleeper, of course you are. you're, you're gonna be excusing all the terrible sleep habits and sleep patterns you have, because you're just a terrible sleeper. I used to say, sleep is for chumps. because I couldn't do it right. Or I thought I couldn't do it. So it was easier to just resign myself to the idea that, like I had some kind of superpower that meant I didn't need as much sleep as other people. And all those other people who were wasting a third of their life in bed were just jumps. like, how ridiculous is that? Isn't that terrible. But I love the quote by Jen Sincero that says identities come with matching habit. And that's one of the things we do in my program is to, is to help. And you don't always have to believe the new identity in order to start saying it to yourself. Right? Sometimes you have to start with the, with saying it and with having the thought and practicing it and you start to believe it over time, the evidence comes later. It doesn't have to be there in order for you to believe the new identity. So that that's really good thing that you do for yourself. So you should keep that up.

Lisa: 9:50

Perfect. I'll keep trying. Well, let's talk about just some like general, like importance of sleep in overall health before we get into some of the tools, because sometimes it's kind of like, well, but why bother? Because like you said, I thought those people were wasting a third of their lives where you're like, I'm not good at that. So I'll just decide it's not for me. If we do decide, well, maybe it's for me, like, why would we want to, why do we really wanna prioritize sleep instead of just saying it's fine. I'm not a good sleeper. I don't care. Why should we care? I guess is kind of the question.

Janet: 10:25

Yeah, so excellent question. So, you know, aside from the kind of health benefits that come from being well, rested and managing your stress well, which sleep helps you to do, one of the biggest benefits of sleep is actually like emotional regulation and mood improvement, right? So when, when people are struggling with their sleep, they're not typically. Unless they have sleep apnea or some kind of biological or physical issue that's causing the sleep problem. They're not typically complaining about being, you know, able to fall asleep at the drop of the, of a hat in the middle of the day. Like that's not really the symptom. That is the biggest complaint. The biggest complaint is I just I'm so moody. I snap at my kids. I yell at my husband or my partner. I'm not. Keeping up with my work. I feel like I can't get through the day. my presentation at work the next day is gonna be off or I won't remember what I was supposed to say. It's stuff like that. Right. And so. These are the things that I think we get used to in our society. We start, like you were saying before, we're we have these throw, throw away lines, like I'm so busy and I'm just tired. Aren't you tired? Like, oh, like, why are we always so tired that we think that this is just a normal state of being. And so all the symptoms that go along with that, which are stress and mental exhaustion. And like, sometimes we think we're tired and we're just mentally or emotionally tired. We're not. Physically ready for sleep. Right? Cause we're telling ourselves we're so tired all the time. so when we can resolve the, the sleep problem and find the amount of quality sleep that's right for us, because it's different for everyone. And I use the word quality in there specifically because. we have this idea that we need to search for eight hours of perfect sleep, but that doesn't exist for everyone. Some people are better with six. Some people are better with eight, the average healthy sleep for an adult seems to be around seven hours, actually not eight. and that's in,

Lisa: 12:28

that, sorry, let me interrupt you. I have a question on that. I've heard the difference between actual sleep and sleep opportunity. So like a lot of times I'm in bed for over seven hours, like I'm in bed for eight, with that sleep opportunity, but I'm actually asleep for just over seven. Is that what you mean by the seven hours? Is that sleep opportunity time or is that like actual sleep time?

Janet: 12:52

So when you're talking about sleep opportunity, we're, we're actually talking about something called sleep efficiency. Okay. So sleep efficiency is the amount of time you spend sleep divided by the amount of time you were in bed. So if we want to be achieving somewhere between 85 and 95% sleep efficiency, which means you get, you know, 15, 20 to 30 minutes on either end of your sleep to be kind of resting, trying to fall asleep, that kind of thing. and you can still achieve. 85% sleep efficiency. So when we're talking about sleep opportunity, we kind of mean the window that you've given yourself with the lights out, that you've dedicated to sleep.

Lisa: 13:34

Mm-hmm

Janet: 13:35

Okay. for insomniacs what tends to happen is we think. We're not sleeping well, we're not getting the, the number of hours of sleep we want. So we're gonna expand our sleep window or our sleep opportunity by going to bed earlier or waking up later, so sleeping in or, or going to bed earlier. But this often actually makes the problem worse because we. Yeah, because we're already spending too much time in bed. Th this is the case for most. Insomniacs actually that they're, they're what they're doing is trying to sleep instead of allowing sleep to just come when it's ready to come. So they go to bed before they're drowsy. They're not listening to their bodies. Sleeping as signals, they've completely forgotten what they are. They make bedtime about when their partner goes to bed or when the news is over or when they've finally cleaned up their kitchen or whatever the trigger is that says, okay, this is my bedtime. It's kind of like eating before you're hungry.

Lisa: 14:37

I was just thinking that I'm like, oh, fascinating. A lot of my clients are like, I don't even know what hunger feels like. Anyone that's listened to any episode, you've heard me say, we wanna wait until we're hungry to eat, pay attention, stop. When we've had enough. And. Our bodies are so smart. They are built with these mechanisms. That's how we were designed to have like these hormones, these signals, like nothing's gone wrong when you're hungry. Like that's just good news cuz your body's working properly. So I feel like it's the same. Like nothing's gone wrong at 10 30 when my body's like it's time for sleep. Like that's just,

Janet: 15:14

That's time for bed then like if, yeah, if you're that's it. And so we want to start adjusting ourselves to our body's signals instead of to, you know, the amount of time now. I say that at the beginning of, of working with me, we do actually kind of tighten up your schedule and then we allow it to expand as you learn those, like we get a little bit specific at the beginning and then we kind of expand it as you get used to seeing what your signals are. But that's really the process. It's the same as, you know, similar to how leptin and growlin the hormones that tell us when we're hungry and we've had enough, melatonin kind of functions that way for sleep, right? People think melatonin is a sleeping pill. It's really not. It's a hormone that is telling our body it's time to start winding down our wakefulness system and kick into gear our sleep system. It's not saying. Hey, let's go to sleep right now. It's saying let's change all the things that we were doing to stay awake all day over to the sleep system so that our body is working and the way it needs to work to go to sleep now. So that's why a lot of people say, well, it doesn't work for me, but it's not intended to actually put you to sleep, right. It's intended to help you regulate your circadian rhythm for things like jet lag and, shift work. And times when you might be living outside of your normal. Circadian rhythm, right? Which like you say, it's a biological process. Like we were designed this way. we are designed so that when light hits our retinas in the morning, it kicks off our wakefulness system. It gives us a jolt of cortisol. It shuts off the melatonin, it raises our heart rate and our blood pressure and says, okay, it's time for us to be awake. We think that that should be an instant, like when we're talking about feelings and sensations in our body, we think that should be like an instantaneous. Okay. I'm awake. I should be so ready for the, for my day, but it doesn't always happen that way. Right. Sometimes it's a slower process and people think there's something wrong with them when they wake up and they're not full of energy

Lisa: 17:18

to go.

Janet: 17:19

ready to go. But some for a lot of people, that's a slower. I always say to clients, and this is something you can say to yourself, listeners, if that's how you wake up in the morning, you can kind of say to yourself, well, I don't need to feel wide awake right now. I just need to get outta bed. Right. That's all I need to do right now. The wide awake will come right now. I just need to put my feet on the floor and then I need to stand up

Lisa: 17:43

Yeah.

Janet: 17:44

and all, and it all kind of comes.

Lisa: 17:48

So you talked about when we're overtired, it's really like the emotional regulation and mood improvement is like a good reason for wanting to get that extra sleep. Being that I do talk about weight loss. How do you think lack of sleep can impact your weight loss goals or your weight loss efforts even. Hmm.

Janet: 18:08

I think this is the biggest place. It impacts our weight loss efforts. So there are hormonal impacts to, like there are studies that show that, grin leptin and insulin are all affected by sleep, but. Much more likely. the thing you're gonna notice is you're gonna crave comfort foods when you're overtired, you are going to be less emotionally regulated. And the reason for that is that our. Amygdala and our prefrontal cortex, they connect with each other back and forth throughout the day when they're working well together, we can kind of balance our emotions and our goals or our intentions. And we can sort of feel like we're in charge of, like, I remember what I wrote on my plan today and that's what I'm gonna eat right now because I'm hungry. Right.

Lisa: 18:54

Mm-hmm

Janet: 18:55

Whereas when we're really tired, we're gonna wake up and go, oh, I just, I slept so horribly when I feel bad like this, I just really like to go to McDonald's or whatever. Right. So maybe I should just listen to that urge and it's much harder. To remember a what your goal really was B what your plan is to achieve that goal and C to sort of have the emotional wherewithal to actually follow through on it. You're much more likely to give into your thoughts, the kind of automatic negative thinking that is it's gonna come up. You just don't have what it takes to be able to. You know, like you said at the beginning. No, I'm actually, in charge here. I am a person who follows my goals. this was my plan and this is what I intend to do. So this happens to, this is one thing that, comes up with my clients too. And we really work on trying to remember. When this is happening. So I'll sort of start having cravings for something like usually it's white bread or it's chips or something that's like really like, yeah. Simple

Lisa: 20:02

Well, when you said, yeah, when you said comfort food, I instantly translate that to simple carbs. That's generally what people think of as comfort food, any kind of, simple carbohydrate, which we don't, you know, count or, or worry about what it, what that is in my program, as far as like what you're eating.

Janet: 20:21

Yeah.

Lisa: 20:21

They tend to not be the things that we plan. We tend to plan salads and chicken and vegetables, and we don't tend to plan mountains of white bread and cookies.

Janet: 20:31

Right. And that's what, like it's there's and I'm familiar with what your plan would be, right. but it's not, not that it's a bad thing to eat those things. It's just, if you weren't intending on eating those things and enjoying them and you're putting them in because you think they're gonna make you feel better. That's where we sabotage our weight loss efforts. Right. When we're

Lisa: 20:53

And does that come from the body saying like, okay, we need quick energy because we didn't get enough sleep. And so the quickest way to energy is simple carbs. Is that why we crave those kinds of things in

Janet: 21:05

I mean, it, it could be the, the fact that most people do probably, you know, lends us to think that I'm not aware of studies that show that. So I can't say like, yeah, for sure. That's the reason. but

Lisa: 21:17

it's just kind of situational because we've all had clients that

Janet: 21:20

yeah. I think, I really think that it's, it's a learn. I mean, it's probably a little bit biological, but it's also a learned behavior, right? It's like, well, we got to, we got here because we were giving ourselves comfort food more often than we really wanted it or needed it. And so when we feel badly, our brain just wants to fix it for us and go right back to the old behavior that made it, that we think. Made us feel better, even though it really didn't right. Because then we started beating ourselves up and all the rest.

Lisa: 21:52

it's funny cuz I, one of my favorite things to say is you rarely feel comfortable after you eat comfort foods.

Janet: 21:59

Right. Exactly.

Lisa: 22:01

Cause most of the time our bodies feel gross. You know, your

Janet: 22:06

heavy. It's

Lisa: 22:07

gross. Yeah. So it's just such a crack up to me that we call these things. Comfort foods like Mac and cheese, I think is one of those really common comfort foods. And I'm like, why do I think that I'm lactose intolerant? Like it's so uncomfortable.

Janet: 22:20

your body doesn't even like it. Yeah. And like, it's just, it's gonna cause an immediate insulin spike that it, when you have the crash after that is gonna feel even worse. Right. So. There's so many reasons why it's not a good idea, but when your brain isn't, when those parts of your brain, and, and there are studies to show that are not well connected and not sort of balancing each other out, you just don't it's, it's no wonder that this is what's happening. Right. And it's, so it's like, it's time to kind of remind yourself, oh, I didn't sleep well last night. And you know, I am a great sleeper now and I do. believe in that identity. I really sleep super well, but I do have the odd night where I don't. Right. Or that doesn't go great or that my brain does keep talking to me and I can't seem to shut it off. And the next day I just remind myself, I'll be like, oh, I've I, my brain is actually telling me, oh, you know what? You just need something salty. And like, you know, maybe you just need some movie popcorn or like, whatever, that'll make you feel better. And then I go, oh right. I didn't sleep well last night. Isn't that funny? And I remind myself, this is what my brain does when I'm tired. It comes and knocks on my little brain door and goes, Hey, remember me? I'm the one. Tells you you're gonna feel better if you have movie popcorn, even though I know that's not true.

Lisa: 23:43

It's such a skill to like, be onto your brain, be like, oh, oh, this is what we do. That's right.

Janet: 23:51

And it's easy for you. And I to say, this is, this is easy and this is how I remind myself because we're used to this and this is how we talk to ourselves. Now, after many years of practice, right?

Lisa: 24:02

Yeah.

Janet: 24:02

That's the beauty of coaching. Like that's, I really think that's the thing. Your clients would get from your pro. Like one of the biggest things is being able to kind of be onto yourself that way and to get to the point where you can notice, you probably do this too, but I talk to my brain like, oh, come on brain. Like, you're just being, you know, you don't need to, I, I'm not listening to that right now. Like, that's not a thought I'm entertaining right now. You know, I talk to it, like, it's another. Person that is bugging me or that's, you know, trying to get my attention, but that took

Lisa: 24:35

of these thought. Yeah. Most of these thoughts we're talking about that's from coming from our lower brain. And so it is kind of that that toddler brain is cuz mine loves to throw a tantrum. So it's that toddler part. So it is easy to talk back. I do like to talk back to my brain and just be like, why are you offering me that like that's terrible idea.

Janet: 24:56

It's never worked for us. Why are

Lisa: 24:58

yeah.

Janet: 24:58

Why do you keep thinking this is a good plan? Cause it's not. Yeah, but, but that's the thing with sleep, right? It's that becomes a lot more challenging when you're not well rested. And so even for someone like you, or I who's really practiced at this, I, really need the reminder. And so, for anybody who's listening who is new to this kind of thought work, that's. You know, it's more that that's causing, because sleep, isn't a magic weight loss pill, right? There are a lot of people who sleep well, who struggle to lose their weight. It really is not the magic pill. However, it could be the thing that's preventing you from. Like, if you're doing everything else, you think you're doing all the things and nothing's working. This could be the thing that, you know, that's kind of holding you back.

Lisa: 25:48

Or if you're still consistently struggling with cravings after, creating plan after plan after plan, if you're just like, I cannot stick to my plan. Having a little bit more emotional regulation could help you manage those and process those cravings a little better.

Janet: 26:06

Yeah, exactly.

Lisa: 26:08

So, I'd love to get back to earlier. You said you had some tools because if you are trying to lose weight or if you're just trying to increase your sleep, because that's one of your health goals, but you just can't seem to get enough. And this would probably be for someone who isn't maybe a diagnosed insomniac, but for those of us that are just like, sometimes it's rough. Of course too. We probably have to leave out like newborn baby moms. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry, but this is just not your season.

Janet: 26:40

that's a hard, that's always a hard one for me when somebody has really little kids and it's like, if you are really not in charge of your own sleep schedule it just is hard being a new mom.

Lisa: 26:52

Yeah. So our hearts go out to you. We've been there both Janet and I have grown kids minor. Mine don't even say goodnight anymore. Honestly. I'm like, did the teenagers go to bed? I don't know. I just, they're just dis they just disappear. Right?

Janet: 27:09

The one thing I would say though, to anyone who might be in that boat, who's listening and feels like we're just kind of, throwing them off the dock is like this is a really good time for you though, to like pay attention to what we're talking about and instill some of the, like don't allow this time of your life or this season of your life to create long term chronic insomnia for you recognize that this is a short term. Feel I say short term, cuz my kids are adults now, but you know, short in the term in the span of a human lifespan, you don't have to develop a chronic problem because. Of this, right? Because you're being woken up by your infant. you can get better sleep back. It is challenging because you're always, you know, parents, especially moms. And this is one of the, I mean, that's a thought, any parent can have one year open listening to their kids. It tends to be moms, but then thinking that and taking that all on yourself is one of the things that leads to long term. Stuff. Right. Because we have thoughts like, well, I'm the mom, it's my job at like these kind of thoughts that make us feel Mar and that don't serve us. right. pay. So pay attention to sort of how you're developing these habits for yourself now so that they don't become a long term problem is what I'll say.

Lisa: 28:25

Yeah. Perfect. Okay. Well, let's get into a couple of your tools for those that feel like they just can't get enough sleep.

Janet: 28:34

So one of them to address your, um, conversation at the beginning about racing minds and waking up, and you can't stop thinking about the stuff that you need to decide about for your kitchen. One of the things that I'm sure you talk to your clients about this too, but like our brains don't love making decisions. Right? Take a ton of energy. Sometimes we feel like we can't decide, there's too many options and brains just don't like living in that. Environment, because they feel like they can't stop thinking they just want some certainty. So one of the tools I have, is for coming your racing mind at bedtime, and you can actually download it on my website at janetwhalen.com/sleep. Um,

Lisa: 29:18

Oh, perfect. Well, and we'll put that link in the show

Janet: 29:21

Yeah. And I'll just explain it to you so that you understand what you're getting, it looks like a chart. there's three columns and the first one is sort of write down every single thing that is on your mind. Right? Like just do a brain dump of all the thoughts that you think are gonna keep you up tonight. And we, when we're in the midst of like racing brain, we think that this is gonna be like 70 things. and it's usually. Four but it feels like a ton, right? um,

Lisa: 29:51

Yeah. It's like when we say everyone will think really who like write down all the people and, and it's like that one girl from high school. yeah. Okay. So it's like four. Okay,

Janet: 30:04

So just knowing now that it's only four things is gonna feel like a relief to you automatically. Right? The next column is you're gonna decide what can you do about each of these four things? Let's keep saying it's four. You write down. Your plan for the next day for how you're gonna handle each of these things. The third column is for, if you can't actually address it yourself, if it's not something that you can control or that you have any say over, and you're just worrying about it, then you come up with a thought. That's just kind of like, you know, I, can't address this because it's not part of my life. I'm just worrying about it for someone else I can choose. To worry about that tomorrow, or to have a conversation with that person, right? Like it's sort of a, a way to calm your brain down with a thought. That helps it stop worrying and teaches it to learn that it doesn't need to worry. So if you, if you get, um, you get the worksheet and I describe all of this and, and why it works. And when you should do it, whether it's before bed or during the day and all of that. So that one's particularly helpful for a lot of people who struggle with that kind of, I can't shut my brain off at night thought.

Lisa: 31:15

let me ask a few questions about that. I'm just curious, would worrying about our children say their decisions, or, I mean, as you know, again, we have big kids and still. Still there's, there's worry. So worrying about their decisions or their life choices or whatever's going on with them. Would that go in that, that column of this is somebody that I need to have a conversation with or that sort

Janet: 31:43

Yeah, cuz it's not probably anything you can do anything about. Like it's probably unproductive worry, right? If your brain is on it at night and. You haven't resolved it or you can't make a plan for it for tomorrow. And the plan for it tomorrow might just be, I'll talk to my kid about this because I haven't talked to them and maybe they don't know that I have some advice or whatever it might be. Right. But if it's kind of unproductive, worry, like the kind of worry that we do when we think we should be able to control the world and we can't. Right. Like lot of

Lisa: 32:17

darn it.

Janet: 32:18

right? Like there's a lot of big worries out there in the world right now. And you know, I have clients who are worried about droughts and, you know, environmental impacts in their areas and their kids and a bunch of things that they just cannot control. And so political issues. Yes, absolutely. And these are, it's not to say these aren't worries. Like it's not to say that they're. Problems, but when, when you can teach yourself that this is not something I can resolve right now, before I go to sleep, like it's, it's gaining some perspective around why does my brain wanna worry about this right now? And how can I kind of redirect it to something else? for nows until there's a time that's more appropriate for me to actually make a plan for this or. Whatever, because we think that worrying is a productive behavior, but it's not right. It's not actually resolving anything. I, I always say it's like praying for the thing that you don't want to happen. right.

Lisa: 33:19

right, Because we focus so much on the what ifs. I'm wondering too. I sometimes will tell my clients when we're talking about. Our emotional life being 50 50, that half the time we have negative emotion and it feels like such bad news. Like what I'm gonna feel sad or frustrated or mad half the time. I'm like the thing is if we didn't, we kind of be psychopaths because if you weren't upset, when you hear of tragedy in the world,

Janet: 33:46

Yeah. Right,

Lisa: 33:47

I'd be a psychopath. Like it would be weird if I didn't miss my dad who's passed away. That's usually one of the examples I use. Like, it would be weird if I wasn't sad. It would be weird if I wasn't angry when I hear about children being hurt in the world in whatever way that is. And so, I wonder if those kinds of thoughts. For me, they're calming to my brain. Is that a helpful way to go about some of these worries? Like of course I'm worried a lot of times I Like to just combat that worry with, of course I am. It would be weird if I didn't think this it's not a problem for me right now, but it would be weird if I

Janet: 34:28

Yeah. Absolutely like that's for a lot of people, that's the most helpful thing, right. This is another thing we do in my program is to help you gain, um, a better emotional vocabulary and a better sense of. How it's okay that we have all of these human emotions, right. That they're not, there are no bad human emotions. Like they're all there on purpose to tell us something they're like this vibration in our body, that's telling us you need to pay attention to whatever it is. Right. Whatever the thought was that. That brought them along. And so it could be anchor. It could be like despair. It could be worry. It could be so many things that don't feel good or that we think we wanna push away, but the more we can sort of accept and allow them to be there. And just like you said, have them be normal. And say like, yeah, like my dad's passed away too. And some nights I do think about him and I, I get up, I not upset, but I just miss him and it makes me sad and right. And I start thinking, oh, why am I thinking about this at bedtime? And then I do, I remind myself it's okay. Like, I'm thinking about this because my brain's not busy now. And. And I haven't been giving myself enough time probably during the day to think about him and miss him. And maybe it means I need to talk to my kids about him and you know what I mean? And, and like, let's spend some memory time about Papa and, you know, help them remember someone that they didn't get enough time with or whatever. And that makes me feel better because it's like, I'm just a human, having a human experience, then nothing has gone wrong. I'm not broken it may have prevented me from sleeping in that moment because I was making it into something that it wasn't. But if I can just sort of remember that it's normal, it's totally fine. And, and I'll be okay then. Yeah, it can dissipate on its own. Yeah.

Lisa: 36:21

Perfect. So that's great for like bedtime, when you're getting ready to go to sleep. What do you do if you wake up in the night too early

Janet: 36:33

So this one is a,

Lisa: 36:34

that 1, 2, 3 o'clock.

Janet: 36:35

this is a big one for Perry and post-menopausal women.

Lisa: 36:40

mm-hmm

Janet: 36:40

um, There's a whole bunch of reasons. Why hormonal reasons. I hear a lot of women saying, you know, I don't sleep well because I'm in menopause. I don't sleep well because I'm having hot flashes. And I'm like, you know what? You're absolutely right. That it probably woke you up that you had a hot flash or whatever. The hormonal reason was. However, we don't have eight hour long hot flashes. Right. And if you do, you should really be talking your doctor

Lisa: 37:09

Right.

Janet: 37:10

So that's where your thoughts have come in and wanted to blame it on something that you're feeling uncomfortable and you're gonna blame it on menopause. And you're gonna start believing all these stories that you've heard, that women don't sleep after menopause. And it's just not true. It definitely affects our sleep. It affects our ability to sleep maybe in one big stretch. But what you're not considering is that it might just be normal that sometimes humans wake up in the. So here, we're back to the kind of normalizing thing. Again, it becomes a problem when we wake up and we think something's gone terribly wrong, cuz that's when our brain goes to work on trying to solve the problem instead of on just relaxing and going back to sleep. So. If like, let's say it's about hot flashes. I do suggest to women that they just keep a like dry pair of pajamas, really close to their bed so that if they're like really sweaty and uncomfortable, and now they're cold, you just get up quickly change, go back to bed and you're comfortable, right? Don't try to fall back asleep and you're sweaty uncomfortable pajamas because it's not gonna happen. Right. Get yourself comfortable and go back to bed. But the bigger thing, and this is for everyone, no matter what your age is. When you wake up in the night and your brain starts to make it a problem and it starts to do math. So I have a rule which is no math in bed. it starts to.

Lisa: 38:32

How many hours have I gotten? How, how long until I have to wake up all that, all

Janet: 38:35

Yeah. Is it even worth it for me to go back to sleep right now? If I, even, if it, I only have two hours, if it takes me an hour to fall asleep, that means it's only an hour. Maybe I should just get up. Like you can't sleep when

Lisa: 38:45

Okay. So none of that calculating.

Janet: 38:47

you're not allowed to do any of that anymore. So what you should do instead is just kind of get yourself. centered a little remind yourself. Okay. What are the facts about this situation? It's nighttime. It's dark. I'm awake. Other people are sleeping. That's it.

Lisa: 39:09

That's it. Yeah, there's really no drama here. You're awake.

Janet: 39:13

Everything else is drama that your brain wants to offer you. Like all the math, everything that's gonna go wrong tomorrow because you're awake. Here we go again. Why doesn't this ever work for me? How come my husband gets to sleep all night? And I don't, why is this easier for other people? Like these are all the same. I've said all these things and every one of my clients is so them too. They're very common. So you wanna, when you notice your brain going there, you want to find the facts and reassure yourself that nothing's gone wrong. You're just awake in the. and you can go back to sleep. And if you can't, that's fine too. There's other things that you can do. And that's one, those are some of the things they teach you in my program. program. Um, but the, the job number one is to calm your brain back down so that it doesn't build up this big stress response that prevents you from sleeping.

Lisa: 40:00

Perfect. Yeah, we use perimenopause and postmenopause so often for, for lack of a better word as excuses, I don't sleep well. I can't lose weight, all of these things and it's simply not true. It just, it's just not true that this causes so many problems. We. May have an increase, like you said, like, yeah, there might be a hot flash or yeah, we might have a little more cravings, but none of that is keeping us from our goals. We really can still achieve goals in, in menopause and beyond.

Janet: 40:36

that's been done. There's there's not been any decrease in metabolism noted in sort of the menopausal transition. Like we sort of think, oh, our metabolism's slowing down. Right. Because we're heading towards menopause and apparently that's not even true. So the thoughts,

Lisa: 40:55

it's such a thought.

Janet: 40:56

right? The thoughts that we allow into our brain as true are. Typically helpful. I have a lot of empathy for people who Haven. Sort of like, I've done this work with various clinical psychologists who study sleep, and this is their whole, this is all they, they do research on. Right? Like I'm not doing any research, but I'm certainly studying the research. They do and I'm trying to bring what I know to you. Right. And they offer programs for people like me so that we can go and help you because we're better at marketing this stuff than they're

Lisa: 41:30

then

Janet: 41:31

so, yeah, um, and that's often their message is, you know, we're making way too much out of a lot of this stuff. Now that's not to say there aren't, there are some various, very serious sleep disorders there really are. And you should always check with your doctor to make sure like sleep apnea can cause serious heart problems. It can. Cause death. It really, it is a super serious thing. You should always make sure that you don't have that. You know, there's narcolepsy, there's many other, things that can go wrong. But for the majority of us who are experiencing either short term insomnia, that we don't want to be become long term chronic insomnia or people like me, who've just like, there was clearly nothing wrong with me. I. Just struggling with sleep for like 40 years. right. But I was physically fine cause I was getting, I was getting through my days and it wasn't every night, but it. A lot. Right. And to the point where I would, I called myself a terrible sleeper. I complained about it all the time. I made up all kinds of excuses about why I couldn't nap during the day. And my husband could. And why, you know, this made me a martyr and well, I can't just check out, like someone has to look after the kids. Lucky you, you get to go have a nap. Right. And I'm in the back of my mind thinking like he's, he's napping at me. you. But really when I really sat down and looked at it, I'm like, he's just a, an adult who's taken responsibility for his own health. Good for him. That's what I should be doing. Right. There's nothing stopping me.

Lisa: 43:02

mm-hmm

Janet: 43:03

He can absolutely look after his children while I have a nap. If that's what I choose or that's what I need, but I wasn't giving myself that permission. I was waiting for somebody else to give it to me. That's why I named my program, what I did, but this is a thing for so many women, right? We just socialized this way for one thing. The sort of how we internalize these beliefs about our roles and what we can, or what we are and aren't allowed. And that kind of thing is really. Harmful in a lot of cases. Yeah

Lisa: 43:35

Okay. So some of us do have a couple bad nights. Some of us feel tired, but how do we know if we're. Actual, if we have actual insomnia or if it's just a casual, like, like for me right now, I don't consider myself having insomnia. I just consider this is a rough stress patch for me, so

Janet: 43:56

that's, a great way to think about it. Yeah. So. True. Insomnia has a definition like chronic insomnia has a definition. So, well, first of all, there's acute insomnia and there's chronic insomnia. So what I typically help people with is chronic insomnia, but acute insomnia happens to everybody. Almost every human has had. Days or nights when or nights typically but, um, several in a row maybe where something stressful is happening with you, like, like what you're talking about. Right. But it resolves itself. You don't start blaming the external. Event, on your insomnia long after the event has stopped, right? Like, so for you, if it's about your kitchen and the decisions you're making with your renovations and everything else, your let's say you continue to struggle having sleep and you keep blaming it on. Well, it was that kitchen renovation. It just threw me into this cycle of insomnia. It's not cause the kitchen is fully done and there's no more decisions to make. Right. So that's how, you know, once, once the event is over and you're still struggling and it's happening two or three times or more per week for, um, I believe the definition now is three months or more. So it has to actually be kind of a continuing regular problem for it to be really considered chronic insomnia, a lot of people. And this is helpful to know for people who are just struggling here and there because acute insomnia can become chronic insomnia pretty quickly by. Building up kind of crutch habits that make it so right. And starting to believe in the insomnia. Insomnia is really just a fear of, of not being asleep. Like it's, being afraid to be awake. When you think you should be sleeping, it's kind of your brain's opinion about your sleep. It's really all it is. And so you don't want that opinion to start spiraling into a lot of negative automatic thinking, you wanna be able to remember things like, no, I believe I'm a good sleeper. This is just one of those things that happens to me because I'm a human and I've always been a good sleeper. This is not a problem. it's When it goes on for a long time that you, you probably need some help, just identifying what those thoughts are that are causing the stress or hindering you from managing your daytime stress. Cuz a lot of insomnia is just unmanaged, daytime stress. It's not even just the stress that happens when your mind is racing in bed. It's the stuff you. Deal with during your Workday or with your relationships or whatever else was going on. Right? So we do a lot of relaxation work and stuff around that too. To remind you you're a human with a human body, human body comes with the ability to relax itself. Like there is a. Literally a built in mechanism to calm our own nervous system. But we don't give ourselves the time. We don't give ourselves the gift of that relaxation when we do. And you can see that you're in charge of that and that you can actually make this happen. It's like, oh wow. I just take all my power back. Right. I don't have to blame all these external circumstances for keeping me awake anymore.

Lisa: 47:08

what your body actually can do.

Janet: 47:10

Yeah. Yeah.

Lisa: 47:11

that's

Janet: 47:12

So powerful.

Lisa: 47:14

Well, thank you so much. This has been such a great conversation. I could continue on for another hour, I think, but let's you did mention your freebie will definitely put a link to that, um, tool in the show notes. Where else can people connect with you?

Janet: 47:29

I am on Facebook at Janet Whalen coaching. That's my page. So you can follow that. I'm also on Instagram, same thing, Janet Whalen coaching. That's the best places to find me.

Lisa: 47:45

will talk to you another time.

Janet: 47:46

Thank you so much for having me.

47:50

Thanks for listening today. If you're ready to get some personalized help from me, I'd encourage you to schedule a free strategy session. Visit www.wellwithlisa.as.me or find a link in the show notes. We'll talk about where you currently are with your weight loss goals, and I'll give you some actionable tools. You can start implementing right away. Before you go, make sure you subscribe to the podcast so you can receive new episodes, right when they're released. And if you're learning something new, I'd love for you to leave me a review. Thanks again for joining me, Lisa Salsbury in this episode of Eat Well, Think Well, Live Well. I'll talk to you next time!