The Fallacy of Vegan Diets Being Healthy with Erin Skinner, RD [Ep. 19]

Lisa: 0:03

Welcome to Eat Well, Think Well, Live Well; the podcast for women who want to lose weight, but are tired of counting and calculating all the food. I'm your host, Lisa Salsbury. I'm a certified health and weight loss coach and life coach, and most importantly a recovered chronic dieter. I'll teach you to figure out why you are eating when you aren't hungry, instead of worrying so much about what you are eating. Welcome everyone. I hope you had a wonderful Thanksgiving. I had my two college adult boys here for the weekend. So everyone was home. We had a lot of yummy food. We went to a football game. If you saw my stories, we went to the BYU Stanford game down at Stanford university on Saturday. So we spent some time in the city before that. So that was really fun, especially because I got to see firsthand my children being excited to get their siblings Christmas presents. I think every one of them bought something for someone else while we were in the city, which. I just love to see. That's really fun. So. If you want to get to know me a little, you can always follow me on Instagram. I share lots of personal and family stuff in my stories. In addition to Free content and things related to all of this weight loss and getting healthy. So I'm on Instagram at well underscore with underscore Lisa. And of course that link is in the show notes. Also one more piece of housekeeping before we jump into today's episode. And that is, I am starting a waitlist. For group coaching coming in 2023. So if you aren't on my email list, be sure to grab my go-to meals, free ebook That will put you on the list and you can see how then to get on the waitlist for group coaching, which I'm really excited about because I have that program. Designed and ready to go for you. Now I'm super excited about today's interview. I have for you. I first heard Erin talk on another podcast and I messaged her immediately. And said, can you come talk about all that stuff with my audience as well? She is a registered dietician and super knowledgeable about the ins and outs of healthy diets. One thing my clients tell me is that they aren't really sure what to eat. And you'll hear me talk in the episode about the fact that we start with working on stopping the overeating patterns and then move into improving the quality of the diet. And although I didn't hear Erin say this here in our interview. I've heard her say before That you don't need. Perfect quality nutrition, most omnivore type eating patterns. Outperform anything without meat so that's going to be one of your big takeaways here is to get adequate protein and specifically adequate proteins from animal sources. But I just don't want you to be overwhelmed and be like, oh, I have to eat all all this way perfectly now because just, just starting with protein. is going to really help and you'll see how that really translates into this work of healthy eating. we start our conversation with some talk about the blue zones as it is one of Erin's specialties. And you'll see how that really translates into this work. And I think you might be surprised also by what you learn about the blue zones. So I'm excited for you to hear this chat with Erin Skinner. Ok. So I have Erin Skinner on the podcast today. I'm super excited to meet her. I actually stalked her on Instagram and I was like, I love what you're doing. So would you come and share that with my listener? So let's start with an introduction from her and how she came to the work that she.

Erin: 3:36

Hi, thanks for having me on. My name's Erin Skinner. I'm a integrative and functional nutrition practitioner and a dietician. My private practice is called Empowered Nutrition. We offer insurance based functional medicine by utilizing the skills of, nutrition professionals rather than relying primarily on like physicians. but then my other big passion is ancestral nutrition. And so I spend a lot of time, working in that space. And then the top three things that I work with are people who want help with their digestive health, their metabolic health, and their hormone.

Lisa: 4:08

Perfect. Fascinating. I love all of that stuff.

Erin: 4:10

Same like-minded it.

Lisa: 4:13

So, yeah, Although I'm not a registered dietician, I'm like in another life that's what I would've done. So when I went back to school, I, I chose health coaching because it was honestly just a little quicker being in my forties already. But it's, you know, something I've been interested in my whole life. And when I heard you first, you were talking about the Blue Zones, which is kind of where we're gonna start with our conversation today. So tell us what Blue Zones are and I know you did quite a research project about that, so tell us all about that. I'm just gonna let you talk for a while,

Erin: 4:52

sure. Yeah, I'll just go for it and stop me. But, when I, if I talk too much, but long story short, most people I think have heard of the Blue Zones.

Lisa: 5:01

Probably, yeah.

Erin: 5:02

I remember when I was a child learning about this and thinking it was like the coolest thing in the world that, Oh, they figured. these regions on the planet where people are much more likely to live, to be a centenarian, which is to live to be a hundred years old. And so let's back engineer, reverse engineer that, see what their lifestyles are like, see what their diets are like, and then just have people, you know, encourage people to follow that pattern. And then you'll also have longevity, like these people in these blue zones. So like that's a really

Lisa: 5:36

feels like magic

Erin: 5:38

Idea that I think is really attractive to people of like, Oh, the secret to long life is like in these long living populations. And, but then what I learned as an adult is, unfortunately, like many things, stories I heard as a child is actually a fairytale

Lisa: 5:51

So sad.

Erin: 5:52

Yeah. Yeah. I also think I'm gonna be Prince Charming, although my husband's great. You know, there's no like pumpkin turning into a carriage going on. But, yeah. So basically, the functional medicine space got recruited to work at this clinic in California. that was basically this owned by this company called Adventist Health is a healthcare company that has multiple hospitals in California and they got excited about the idea of functional medicine and so they wanted to have a functional medicine clinic. In their corporate headquarters and have it be insurance billed. And so they hired, you know, me and this other functional medicine team, like the doctor, the nurse, the pharmacist, the physical therapist, all that. so go ahead and figure out how to make this work with insurance. And so, that was like the assignment. But then while I was there, it turns out that Blue Zones is not just an idea, it's a company.

Lisa: 6:42

because once it, once it became an idea, then they created books and a whole like trademark around it.

Erin: 6:49

Yes. Yeah, exactly. And they do a lot of like consulting where they have, they get hired to implement. The Blue Zones like environment in a place. So like a town might hire them to have their town be more Blue Zones, ask and like to, to help the citizens follow more of a Blue Zones lifestyle or company might help with like a corporate Blue Zones environment with them getting it. So anyway, I was working at this company, Adventist Health. They purchased the Blue Zones company

Lisa: 7:20

Okay.

Erin: 7:21

then it became all about like, okay, we're totally into the Blue Zones now. We're gonna be promoting the whole Blue Zones model. We're gonna be teaching that, We're gonna be trying to get all these employees to start doing that. and so of course I'm the only nutrition professional in the building, so of course it's like, yeah, I should, you know, look at what this nutrition plan is,

Lisa: 7:43

Because that's a big piece of, of the whole Blue Zone concept is what they're eating.

Erin: 7:48

Huge. Yeah, huge. Yeah. I think a lot of people don't realize that there are other pieces,

Lisa: 7:54

There's a, a lot to it with like connection with other individuals and their, their lifestyle, their movement, all of that. But the diet is where things get focus.

Erin: 8:05

exactly. Yeah. So, so I pulled it up. There's like basically a description of the diet and it's. Immediately concerning to me because it's basically like one step removed from a vegan diet. So it's something on the order of like maybe one ounce a day of some animal protein on average, even fish was discouraged. eggs are discouraged, DA is discouraged. It's, it's essentially a vegan diet but not labeled as such. and so. That's to me an unsafe diet, especially to be recommending on a population level. This isn't like, Hey, talk to a healthcare professional about this and, and ask them if this is appropriate for you. There's no discussion of supplements or any way that you're gonna round out the. Inadequacies of this diet with like supplementing or anything. It just, everybody should start eating this way and like, everybody's gonna love to be a hundred. Woo. It's gonna be great.

Lisa: 9:02

and it's like

Erin: 9:03

Yeah. So, but, data first, right? So what I did was I, they actually, part of the, what you can get with Blue Zones is you can pay to get access to their meal planner.

Lisa: 9:14

mm-hmm.

Erin: 9:15

And so I was like, Okay, great. I paid, I was like, I'll buy a subscription. I'll have it generate an individualized meal plan for me. I went and followed that and tracked all my nutrition with my, nutrition as software for three days. and it turned out that I was inadequate on almost all of the vitamins and minerals, and very inadequate on protein, on the, on the diet. So, To me that was like immediately concerning. Cause it's inadequate for me, let alone somebody who's compromised, like a pregnant woman or a child or an elderly person, or someone with an injury or chronic illness. an athlete, like every, all those people have increased needs. but it was even inadequate for pouring on me with normal needs. So, so, basically. that was the main research project I did, and then I just kind of put that together with, I'm actually in a doctorate program, so I write a lot of like, papers that summarize like a topic, like let's summarize all the peer reviewed literature on a topic. And so I kind of put together a paper that summarize, like, okay, here's all the, the problematic things about vegan diets. Cuz by the way, the meal plan that it gave me was vegan.

Lisa: 10:23

even though they allow a little bit, but they say it's discouraged when you put it into the meal plan, they don't actually plan you

Erin: 10:29

Yeah, it's like this weird little bait and switch thing where like, surprise, you are given this vegan diet without them us telling you that's gonna happen. In the end, it that didn't even matter. Cuz what I did is I said, Okay, well this is like completely inadequate, quite, but what if I went ahead and did put in the one ounce a day? Animal protein that this diet allows. and like, I think there's like a small allowance of like some dairy. it didn't change the numbers at all. It was

Lisa: 10:56

Oh. Cause it wasn't enough.

Erin: 10:58

It was, yeah, it was like a drop in the bucket. And so it ended up being that, yeah, it didn't matter either way, but Yeah, I kind of put that all together of like, Hey, here's a summary, summary of the literature on, vegan diets and like problematic things about that. Here's the data that I found, and then I compared that to like, Okay, let me put in three days of like my typical diet. But no, I was like, meaning almost everything on my normal diet. So it's like, yeah, no, it's not like the software is crazy. It. This meal, this meal plan is crazy. so that,

Lisa: 11:27

like, what kinds of specific things, I mean, the protein alone is obviously super concerning, but what, what kinds of other things do you feel like it was missing?

Erin: 11:36

well, I mean, like most of the B vitamins, it came in low and then, Very little calcium. it came in low on there. There's essentially no choline in it. Um, zinc was inadequate on it. Selenium, lium, I think magnesium might have been okay. There's essentially no vitamin D in it. There's no pre-form vitamin A by definition. Like you can only get that from animal sources.

Lisa: 12:02

mm-hmm.

Erin: 12:03

No EPA and dha, at all. because they don't allow that. So it is just like,

Lisa: 12:09

And yet no recommendation of supplementation on that stuff, even though it's shown to be protective. Yeah.

Erin: 12:16

Well the B12 was zero. Like you can't get that from plants. And so, and like I personally had clients with B12 deficiencies, you can get like irreversible neurological damage. From a B12 deficiency. No warning of that. None.

Lisa: 12:30

So that's crazy. What, why is it that the Blue Zone company has decided that the vegan diet is what Blue Zone folks ate? What happened there? Like where's the disconnect between these, these regions where we did have centenarians and this diet that is actually like, it can't be what they were eating. Like what happened?

Erin: 12:53

Yeah, that's a good question. What I found that, like really kind of blew my mind when I started to look more into that question was basically, there's some really concerning things about these data sets. there's basically like publish studies where they've gone in and they've looked at it and they found that like, Oh, okay, here's where. You can almost predict that there's gonna be a blue zone. It's gonna be an area where there is, a federal pension paid based out on age to a population that has a low income. And there's poor vital records keeping. So you're poor, you don't have money, but if you, if you can prove that you're. A certain age you can start getting money from the government and it's easy to prove cuz you can fake a birth certificate when you have those three things happening at the same time, you have a blue zone, so,

Lisa: 13:49

not actually centenarians as what studies are showing? Is that what you're

Erin: 13:54

Yeah. And what's even more obvious about it now is like they're going back and like, and like those people that like back in the, like 20 years ago, and this all became a big thing. Some of these like amazing centenarians that were interviewed, like they'll go now and they're like still alive.

Lisa: 14:09

So it would make 'em be like 120 years old,

Erin: 14:11

Yeah. Which would be like record break.

Lisa: 14:14

Yeah.

Erin: 14:15

Yeah.

Lisa: 14:16

So Blue Zones are like, the whole thing is not true, is basically what your research is finding.

Erin: 14:23

Yeah.

Lisa: 14:25

Okay. That's so disappointing on so many levels.

Erin: 14:28

I know. I know it really is. Yeah. Age fraud is like known to be a huge issue with, with like longevity research. And so, I did try to give them the benefit of the doubt and like look for like, okay, where's their, like peer reviewed studies where they've shown that this. Is like valid and like they have good evidence for it, and there's really none. I mean, they've really gotten away with not having any peer reviewed research or like sharing any data. They, like, they all say, they just say they have the data and they don't share it.

Lisa: 14:58

So it's not reproducible and, and really the blue zones was, the whole beginning situation was a correlation. It wasn't really a study. They just went in and said, We think this maybe correlates.

Erin: 15:12

Right, and within real research, that's not how that works. To your point is like you start with some of this like epidemiological type data, which is like the weakest tier of data of like, okay, well we think we're seeing this correlation between this blue zones lifestyle and longevity. The next step is that an interventional study where you go and take two groups and put one group on the Blue Zones lifestyle and another group on a different lifestyle, or you compare it to the. American lifestyle is controls. And then you actually see what happens over time. You know?

Lisa: 15:48

Hmm, but that was never

Erin: 15:49

No, no, definitely not. No. and what, what else is crazy about it? The whole thing is like, in these areas that are like the blue zones, they've actually found that, like if you are, Like in those populations, in those areas where they're saying where people are more likely to live to 100 years old, those people are also less likely to live to be 65, which doesn't match any like reality in terms of how human life works. But what it does match is like poverty because again, these are poor areas and we know that people with poverty have lower longevity. Poor health outcomes and less likely to, to live, to retirement age. And so, in that environment, you also have more of these people who have, of course, like falsified their age in order to get to this age where they get this pension. But, that just underscores how messed up it all is. It's like, okay, in no real like place where vital records are kept and like the data is solid, that's not a phenomenon that happens where it's like, You're, if you're unlikely to make it to age 65, that makes you more likely to live to a hundred. Those two things don't actually naturally go together. It's more that if you're unlikely to, If you live in an environment where you're not likely to live to 65, you're also not likely to make it a hundred like as logic would have you like believe that's how it actually works. Yeah. Yeah.

Lisa: 17:12

So I'm curious if the poverty also contributes to the, inadequate diets, because

Erin: 17:20

exactly. Yeah.

Lisa: 17:21

it like kind of coordinates that having proper protein and having the proper amount of, you know, nutrients just naturally by having a well-balanced diet that actually coordinates with poverty. Is that why they're showing that these populations are living more of a vegan lifestyle?

Erin: 17:40

Yes. Yeah.

Lisa: 17:42

Which is interesting because veganism is such a privileged diet because in order to have a proper vegan diet, And be healthy. You have to supplement. You have to be privileged enough to, number one, have the knowledge on how to do that, and number two, have the resources to do all the proper, proper supplementation.

Erin: 18:04

Yeah, it's pretty ironic, isn't it?

Lisa: 18:07

Yeah.

Erin: 18:08

Yeah.

Lisa: 18:09

Yeah. I, I just have to say like, when I first heard this and first learned that like the blue zones weren't a thing, I was so disappointed because one of my, like strong driving forces in my health is longevity. I actually do have several centenarians in my. ancestry, like one in particular who was my great grandma and I had a relationship with her all through high school, like pretty sure her age wasn't falsified

Erin: 18:36

Yeah, I'm sure it wasn't. Yeah.

Lisa: 18:39

So I know like I have it in my dna, like. I'm like, Okay, the capability is there and so what can I do now to improve my health? And, and it's not just the point of like living to a hundred, although I do tell my kids now, I'm like, You better throw me a huge party when I turn a hundred. And I always tell them I'm gonna live to a hundred. So some of that's just mindset, but the real driving force there is, what I say is I wanna be an influence for good on my grandchildren because like that next generation. I remember my great grandma and she was an influence for good. And so that is, a big deal for me. And so when learning that this whole like blue zones, which is kind of the gold standard for longevity wasn't a thing, I'm like, Okay, so now what? Where can we find longevity?

Erin: 19:29

Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I think there's a lot of really brilliant people working in the longevity space. and there's a lot that we do know about it, but I think that all of that is less sexy than the Blue Zones idea. And so it is still sad. Like that was such a fun fairytale. I mean it really was, but Yeah, it was just appalling to me to see like that it's not even like they've even tried like to actually provide any valid, like, proof of any of this. and that I guess they haven't had to cuz it's just so exciting and like National Geographic took on with it and like, I love National Geographic, like who doesn't love National Geographic? Have to love it. Like you just saw everything about it is like so attractive. So maybe that's why, but, I wouldn't give up on the idea of longevity. I mean, there's a lot of good information research on that. For example, like the mind diet, is, is evidence based. And that's something that really does show improved. I mean, cognition isn't the only thing about longevity, but you wanna think about like, quality of. Aside from just being alive, Right.

Lisa: 20:41

Right. Your health span matching your lifespan.

Erin: 20:44

Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, you know, look at things like the mind diet, that that actually is data driven. There's plenty of actual peer reviewed published studies on that. Like that's a great way to go.

Lisa: 20:55

Mm-hmm. So the company that you worked for, Adventist Health. What, what is their, like parent company? Why did they decide to purchase Blue Zones? What was going on there?

Erin: 21:08

Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't say that they have a parent company, there are a number of organizations owned by. People who are members of the Seventh Day Advent Adventist Church, and those, there's a lot of, a lot of those companies profit from promoting vegetarianism by providing things like vegetarian protein replacements and things like that. And so there's, there's quite a built up culture and climate of like these Adventist businesses promoting veganism, almost like a team. and so I think, so even though Blue Zones is not religiously affiliated, the community of Adventist in general I think has an interest in promoting, veganism and vegetarianism cuz there is quite a lot of profit that's coming in that way. And so,

Lisa: 22:01

one of their like religious tenants to be vegetarian, correct?

Erin: 22:05

well technically, No, I, that was like a really interesting thing about working there, cuz like most of my clients were Adventist. Like, there's a lot of Adventist work there. and they're now, so next thing I know, all of a sudden I've got all these like vegetarian patients, which was fascinating. But, I actually grew up with some family members that were Adventist and they would just not eat shellfish or pork. And that's, that's technically what the religion is, is to not eat shellfish or pork, however, There's this sort of also element of like if you can go further than that, that's really a good idea. So it's not the law, but it's like the favored behavior. And so, and actually over like the decades, last several decades, it's gone more and more towards. Veganism. So like a lot of 'em told me they grew up where like their family would just openly eat like chicken and fish and it was fine. but now that would be something you wouldn't do like around other Adventists or like, say that you do. And so, so it's kind of been almost like a cultural thing where it's gone that direction, but they're, they did seem a little bit confused on it where it was like they're hearing things in church. That tell where there's like Bible verses being interpreted as saying that they should be, vegan. And so there is some of that messaging that goes on.

Lisa: 23:29

I just wondered if it correlated with this like blue zone situation that they were kind of because they purchased it and were kind of becoming associated with it if it became more part of what they were kind of instructed to do. Because there's also Blue zone areas of cultures like this too, like the blue zone of people that fall in religious groups. And I know one thing you've mentioned is, that they also see this longevity with Mormons, which. I just told Erin, I actually happened to be those of you that listen. And the only difference because there's still the same kind of qualifications of no alcohol and no smoking and no, you know, those kinds of things, but that members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, we ate meat and so that's kind of one of the biggest difference. And they're not included. That population is not included in some of these like religious blue zone area.

Erin: 24:27

right? So like Loma Linda is considered a blue zone and the Adventists that live there have the same longevity of the Mormons that also live nearby, but they don't consider the Mormon area to be a blue zone. The whole thing is, very selective. And so, To take some random thing like that that's not evidence based, and then to take one piece of it. Like the diet piece and to stick to like calm onto that and say that's what people should do is crazy. It, it's just complete madness. Especially when the diet is dangerous to say, Oh well because we see these people in Loma Linda being long living, therefore everybody should follow this vegan diet. It's just nonsense. Whereas when, like as you said there, for example, Mormon that eat animal protein that lived just as long, or.

Lisa: 25:15

And live in the same exact area,

Erin: 25:18

And so maybe it's just that everybody needs to abstain from alcohol, or maybe it's just that everybody needs to have strong social networks like people do who are involved in the church. Or maybe it's just that people need to, have a faith and a higher being that they can depend on. Or maybe it's that people need to not smoke or that they need to get more exercise. And like there's, there's a million things that are all intertwined and people who have, Healthy lifestyles. And so you can't, that's just, that's just like not sound science. To take one thing out of it and to recommend that across the board to a population skips all logic, all steps of actual evidence based practice. It's just random, like, things in whatever, like financial interest in my opinion.

Lisa: 25:59

Yeah. And there is a push in, I think, mainstream media that meat is unhealthy. And so, you know, it's just kind of, cascading on this, you know, it's all going together. And so I. I have clients that tell me, Well, you know, I want to get healthier, but you know, I do still eat meat. And they kind of say this with some amount of shame. They're like, Well, you know, I, I probably, I probably eat too much red meat. And I'm like, No, no, it's It's fine. Like, don't believe that stuff. And it's so damaging what we're hearing in the media because I think as women especially, and most women that I coach are in kind of my age range, forties, fifties, sixties, and they're just not getting enough protein

Erin: 26:43

Yeah.

Lisa: 26:44

and it's so concerning. How are you seeing that with your clients or just how are you fighting that with the mainstream media of what people are seeing there?

Erin: 26:54

Yeah. I mean, I see the same thing and I don't, I'm not shy about it cuz I do see it as a huge threat to people's health. And so, maybe that time that I had working with vegetarians was helpful in the sense of like, it got me really comfortable with like those more difficult conversations in a non-threatening and non blaming way. It's not people's fault that they're confused on nutrition. and it is hard to know what the right thing is. And so, I ask them to maybe don't trust me. don't just take it at face value that whatever I say is right, but like, give me a chance for a season. I, Here's your, you've come to me for help with problem X. I've got a lot of reps and a lot of experience. here. I think that that process y would help you with problem X. And so will you trust me to try that for Z number of. and if you're not having improvements with Problem X, then like, tell me to go jump in a lake and, if you are feeling better, then well, we learned what works well for you. Great. And to kind of take the whole ethics out of it, You know what I mean?

Lisa: 28:00

yeah, totally. One thing I tell my clients is your food journal. Is actually the most important nutritional study you'll ever read because finding out what works for you and tracking, whether it's digestive symptoms or inflammation. I have a lot of clients that are like, I know when I eat sugar, my knees hurt. You know, cuz it's like the pain and the joints, that kind of thing. And so tracking that kind of stuff and figuring out like, How do I feel on an increased amount of protein? How do I feel on animal protein versus vegetarian type proteins, which we know aren't complete proteins. how's your energy level different? How are you sleeping different and looking at that nutritional study that is your food journal. And that's kind of what you're saying, like give it a try

Erin: 28:45

Yeah. Or Yeah, or even if people aren't ready for that, one thing I'll have people do a lot is I'll say, Okay, great. Well then get this free app. It's called crome. Put your food in there for three to seven days straight, and it's gonna tell you all the vitamins and the minerals and the amino acids and the essential fats that you're getting and compared to like your needs. And if, if you're good, it's gonna turn green. And if you're not good, it's not gonna turn green. It's very easy to read. It's a bar. It's a bar graph. why don't you go ahead and see what your current diet's doing for you, and then when you come back, we'll talk about it. Usually they come back eating steak.

Lisa: 29:26

They come back eating steak

Erin: 29:27

Like, Oh, weird. Like you were low on almost everything when you didn't eat animal protein. Cuz it's a natural compliment and I'm very pro plant, like I have people eat lots and lots of plants. That's also critical. But it all comes back to like, what's the natural human diet? It's not. Controversial what humans have been eating for like the vast majority of their time on earth. And it's not that we have to eat like the perfect ancestral diet all the time, but it does mean that, like, look, this is what humans are wired to have and the nutrition science is not controversial like we talked about with b12. I mean, that's, that's like a pretty obvious thing, right? If you don't get b12, you're gonna die from neurological damage. You can only get that from animals. that kind of

Lisa: 30:12

It, it seems so obvious

Erin: 30:14

Or like if you had a dog and you put a dog on a vegan diet, it would

Lisa: 30:18

vegans do

Erin: 30:20

Yeah. Well, it's not gonna do

Lisa: 30:22

It's sad.

Erin: 30:22

Yeah, it's not gonna do well. I mean, obviously you'd have to supplement it, but, I, I don't think that, I mean, maybe for some people they're even confused on that. I think it's easier for people to think about animals in that way. More of like, okay, it makes sense that an animal should eat its natural diet. Like, In the end, humans are the same way. We're just like animals. We are animals, but like we also need to eat our natural human diet just in the way that you're like, my tortoise, I have a tortoise. He cannot eat a bunch of fruit. It will kill him. And even if I think that fruititarianism is like the best diet for tortoises, that doesn't change the fact that that will kill him. If I give. Fruit. He needs his natural diet, which is like weeds basically. so we're the same way. Like we only thrive off of our natural diet. And like obviously some people can tolerate more deviation from that than others and, and that's great. But to go to such an extreme of eliminating a fundamental tennant of the human diet is no different than if I just gave my tortoise fruit all the time. It's, it just doesn't match with logic, you know.

Lisa: 31:26

we, we are fundamentally omnivores. That's that. That's just true and, and I think it's important what you're saying, like plants still are important. We're not recommending, we're not sitting here recommending a carnivore diet, which please don't do that. Please don't go swing all the way the other way because vegetables, like when you're looking at all of those nutrients, a lot of those things do come from our vegetables, but. We can't get it all from vegetables and grains and that sort of thing. So you do a lot of ancestral nutrition, functional nutrition. Where would someone want to start with that? Because where, Where I work more with the thought patterns around food. My clients deal with a lot of like, why am I. Eating when I'm not hungry and that sort of thing. I work on overeating patterns and just taking in too much fuel for the body. We definitely do look at what they are eating, but I'm not as specific nutrient focused as you are cuz most of my clients are just like, please just help me stop emotionally eating. So, it's kind of the first step really is to say like, okay, if I. Just start eating the amount that is right for my body. Then we move into, okay, how can I up level and crowd out the foods that I don't really want to eat as much? How can I crowd them out with the foods that I do? So when we're thinking about crowding out, I always say, What do we want to add to the diet? So what would be your first recommendation on. On adding, if someone was like, Okay, I'm, I'm ready. Like, I'm not overeating anymore. I'm, you know, I've been doing that work and I'm ready to actually improve what it is that I'm eating. Where would be the first place for them to start?

Erin: 33:15

Yeah, that's a great question. I think you kind of can't be successful in the long term without kind of addressing both sides of that coin. So the mindset piece is critical so that you, And so it's so good that you're doing that because, I mean, honestly, it tick me off like. Especially women, we've been exposed to so much crazy toxic messaging our whole life around food and diets and like our bodies that, who isn't to some level messed up on their, in their thinking about food without working on it. And so that's really important. But, yet to be careful with only doing that because if you, that, that can start to approach. where you're not anything better than like a calorie deficit or like counting points because you're expecting it to all come from your mind and like your decision making Whereas like what's actually happening with obesity is that there are real physiological problems that are happening with your metabolism. Your insulin's messed up. Your mitochondria and their ability to generate energy from fat is messed up. Your signaling of hunger hormones like leptin and ghrelin is messed up. Your inflammatory status is messed up. Your gut health is messed up, and all of those things are not your fault. That's a product of what you've, probably the foods that you've. First probably fed even from like childhood and then later told or healthy for you, but your body's working against you when you're struggling with your weight. And they've tried, and they've tried and they've tried and it doesn't work because their body is broken, but they're not getting that message and they're not getting help with healing their metabolism. And so it's like you're fighting. Your body constantly and nobody can fight forever. You end up losing out. That's why people lose some weight and then they gain it back and then they lose some weight and then they gain it back. Cause you can only hold out a 20 pound dumbbell in front of you for so long, you get tired,

Lisa: 35:18

Right. Totally. We talk about willpower. I mean, willpower is like a muscle just like that. It wears out. You can't depend on willpower forever you, because it does wear out

Erin: 35:30

Yeah.

Lisa: 35:31

from that. Yeah.

Erin: 35:32

Yeah, so I think it's important to do both. I mean, like what we do is like basically there's like four pillars to an eating pattern. Helps you with your metabolic health. One element is to like keep your blood sugar steady. So avoiding like things that are high glycemic, and it doesn't mean ketogenic diet, but it means like slow carbs. And then, the next step is getting enough protein. So eating protein consistently at every meal for sure. And ideally some snacks and ensuring that you're getting quality protein. So it doesn't have to be that you're having. Meat all the time, but there needs to be some animal protein. And then there can certainly be plant-based proteins and other type like dairy-based proteins if you tolerate it and things like that. But meeting protein needs. The third pillar is getting enough plants and plant diversity and fiber. So basically for us, that looks like for women like four to five cups a day of vegetables. So it's like a lot.

Lisa: 36:28

That is a lot.

Erin: 36:29

yeah, a lot. Like people are like, I eat vegetables, check, I'm gonna move on. They're like, No, actually, do you? Four or five cups a day of vegetables, And then, and then the last piece is, improving the inflammatory properties of the fats that we're eating. So not eating a low fat diet, but what I find is that people are getting quite a lot of omega six fats and that's pro-inflammatory and that causes metabolic derangement. and I actually measure that in people's labs all the time, that their omega six levels are high and their omega-3 levels are low. So like rebalancing, that helps a

Lisa: 36:59

is super common in America. Like it's, it's typical for you to be over on omega six because most people don't know this. Like the, the Omega six oils are, a lot of 'em are the ones that the American Heart Association has told us for years and years and years are the healthy ones, And so we've become Omega six dominant and that's definitely something that needs to be corrected.

Erin: 37:21

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So doing those four things is life changing and it can certainly be the, I mean, just between the protein and the vegetables, that, that's often the best first two steps cuz those are crowding out things. and then you're not really taking the carbs out, but you're shifting often the choices that you're making and the quantities, the fat piece is harder than it sounds cuz it's not like people are dumping a bunch of vegetable oil on their food at home and except salad dressing. They are, but it's like, they don't realize it's in your, your bar, your coffee creamer, the dressing. You got it like, A salad when you ordered a salad or any salad dress, any salad dressing if you like, go out to a restaurant or if you eat at home, it's in a popped popcorn that you get. It's in your dried sea. We eat. It's, what they cook to your restaurant meal in. It's it's ubiquitous in our food supply. Even if you yourself don't even own a bottle of vegetable oil, you're probably eating it every day.

Lisa: 38:15

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Make your own salad dressings people

Erin: 38:18

yeah, definitely. It.

Lisa: 38:20

use olive oil.

Erin: 38:21

So easy.

Lisa: 38:23

Yeah. What are your favorite oils? Just as a kind of a side note, like what oils do you recommend?

Erin: 38:28

Yeah, so like, I think the biggest thing I'll have people do is like pay attention to like smoke points. So if you, you never wanna heat an oil above it's smoke point. So the first question I'm asking is like, okay, well how hot is this food gonna get if I'm gonna go above like three 50, I'm gonna be doing either an animal fat like a lard or I'm gonna be doing a. High heat oil that like an avocado oil can get very hot and that's fine. But if it's gonna be a cooler temp, then I can do like an olive oil.

Lisa: 38:57

Yeah. Good. I'm like kind of checking because like a lot of this stuff I'm like, Yep. Okay, good. I I say that too cuz

Erin: 39:03

Nice.

Lisa: 39:04

at the beginning, I'm like a registered dietician, I just have Yeah. Yeah. Like, okay. Yep, yep. That's what we do. That's what my clients do. We do, quite a bit on, on hormone health and getting those hormones, insulin leptin, ghrelin, like you were mentioning, back in line.

Erin: 39:19

Awesome. Nice work. They're lucky to have you. There's a lot of confusing places to find nutrition health that makes it feel hopeless, so it's good that you're there to help support.

Lisa: 39:32

Well, and too, I, I think for a lot of women, they come in and they're like, I don't know, I just don't even know what, what's healthy anymore. But it's really not a lack of knowledge. Like all of this is available. On Google, like, which is how you were saying like, don't just work with the mindset, but people know all of this. Technically they, they think they're confused, but if they take a step back and I'm like, What's worked for you before? Where do you feel amazing? Where do you get the most energy? And they're like, Yeah, it's when I was eating high protein and a lot of vegetables. I'm like, Yeah, yeah, you actually do know. And so that's where kind of like the mindset piece does come in is. Choosing that diet. Again, choosing, and, and by diet I don't mean an official capital D diet, but just your diet is what you eat in the day. Eating pattern. Yeah. I, And I wish there were two words for it, like being on a diet as opposed to your eating pattern for the day is your diet,

Erin: 40:27

Your dietary methods, so

Lisa: 40:30

Yeah,

Erin: 40:32

Yeah.

Lisa: 40:33

So, okay. Any last words of wisdom here for us?

Erin: 40:37

No, just, it's amazing the work that you do and, thanks for having me on. I really love the chance to really just talk about what's true with nutrition and hopefully, this wasn't discouraging, but more just a source of hope of, there is truth with nutrition. Nutrition could be life changing. It's just a matter of like finding. A responsible resource that is actually like, resonates with you and like your needs, whether it be that you need the framework, technically you're a nutrition, or if you need more help on the mindset side of food. And most of us can benefit from both sides of that coin. So yeah, it's really fun.

Lisa: 41:15

Good. Thanks so much for spending your time and coming on the podcast.

Erin: 41:19

thanks for having.

Lisa: 41:19

can you tell people where they can connect with you or learn more about what you do?

Erin: 41:23

Sure. Yeah, people probably the best way is our website is www.empowerednutrition.health, and, you can learn more about our insurance based functional medicine practice and what plans we take and what problems we help solve. And there's also a contact page there if you wanna chat with me about anything.

Lisa: 41:40

Perfect. Thank you so much.

Erin: 41:43

Take care.

Lisa: 41:46

hey, thanks for listening today. If you're ready to get some personalized coaching from me, I'd encourage you to schedule a free strategy session. Visit www.wellwithlisa.as.me or it's easier just to find that link in the show notes. We'll talk about where you currently are with your weight loss goals. And I'll give you some actionable tools. You can start implementing right away. Before you go, make sure you subscribe to the podcast so you can receive new episodes, right when they're released. And if you're learning something new and enjoying the podcast, I'd love for you to leave me a five star rating and a review. Thanks again for joining me, Lisa Salisbury in this episode of Eat Well, Think Well, Live Well.